Bye bye BCLDB, or not?

[LoneWolf_53]

Indeed.

[Looney]

Are you saying that the less money people have to spend on goods, investments, saving for retirement etc. helps the economy. The retirement savings, govt. or corporation pensions alone save the government/economy a fortune not having to pay the pension add ons (suppliments for low income earners). Truth be known with people living longer the savings in those extra suppliments and benifits (prescription costs and many other low income benfits) probably pay a lot of if not all the pension costs the pension costs for government employees. Low income people are bery expensive for the economy in the long run. It is middle class wage earners that support the economy for their lifetime not low income earners. Sorry but I fail to see your theory.

[logicalview]

Weird, the things some people believe. Such as, paying people more than they are worth makes the economy stronger. I'm afraid the economy doesn't work that way. Contrary to popular delusions expressed in this forum, paying public employees more than they are worth only debilitates the economy, regardless of how much shopping they do or fancy dinners they eat out.

If liquor board employees are overpaid, privatization and the consequent lower salaries will benefit the economy. There is nothing controversial about that statement except in the mind of economic illiterates.

It's such a simple concept.

Is there any way to make it simpler so that they can understand it?

[Homeownertoo]

Are you saying that the less money people have to spend on goods, investments, saving for retirement etc. helps the economy. The retirement savings, govt. or corporation pensions alone save the government/economy a fortune not having to pay the pension add ons (suppliments for low income earners). Truth be known with people living longer the savings in those extra suppliments and benifits (prescription costs and many other low income benfits) probably pay a lot of if not all the pension costs the pension costs for government employees. Low income people are bery expensive for the economy in the long run. It is middle class wage earners that support the economy for their lifetime not low income earners. Sorry but I fail to see your theory.

No, I suggest you read what I wrote.

Low income, middle income -- these are just words. What is "bery expensive" for the economy is paying people more than they produce, regardless of how low or middle is their income. And yes, rich economies support better lifestyles than poor economies. But contrary to your basic assumption, you don't create rich economies by simply paying people more.

And I know (from your basic lack of basic economics) that you are not trying to make some convoluted Keynesian argument, so let's not go there.

[Looney]

I understand economics quite well thank you. I just don't agree with the way they are being handled these days. I believe our world economy should bear out my disgust. When a provincial government apparently relying on economists can't even realize they are in a downturn until after it's half over there is a problem. If my memory serves me right they did it twice in the last decade.

I agree you have to be paid for the job you do. But that goes for everyone not just the people on the floor. And stupid statements like I've seen "fire them all and hire everyone at minimum wage" is beyond belief. To have a vibrant economy you need the majority of people supporting themselves throughout their life and not relying on public money to survive. Workers in the public system deserve a liveable salary just like everyone else. No more no less, and that goes from top to bottom. In many cases the top and the bottom of the scale have gotten totally out of line.

[sixxonesixx]

Prices cheaper in B.C.? I'm not sure about that. Whenever I'm in Alberta, I always buy at the Costco or Superstore Liquor stores. Products from BC are considerably cheaper like coolers and some wines. I've always said BCLCB outlets should be shut down as well as ICBC. I'm a snowbird and stay here in the summer and even my BMW bike is only $112 for 12 months of use for PL-PD. BC government is behind in alot of things. Cashiers at the BC liquor stores make how much money? How about Wal-Mart? There is probably a good $15 an hour price difference between the two. What makes the 2 so different. Right... the union. Bottom line is the government is finally trimming the fat. Unions are good- as long you belong to one. As a business person I think this is a sound economic decision. The next decision should be to let the Costco , Safeway, and Superstores allowed to open liquor outlets. The little guy says that they won't be able to make money. If it was so prosporous, then everyone (including myself) would open a liquor store. Now lets look at ICBC and those fatcats.

[Smurf]

Interesting discussion. Homeowner, I see where you're coming from but I don't believe that theory of being paid for what you produce works all that often. Many times what you produce cannot be properly valued.

As a maintenance electrician much of the work I did showed no actual production as such. We could calculate what would happen if we didn't do it but it was only a guess. Educated I admit, but a guess. We did try the breakdown maintenance thing and that did not work. Very expensive with too much down time. I had a manager who came from the construction industry and was very good at his job, but it drove him crazy that we could work all day and nothing was done. He could visually not see any production. He did get over it but it took a long time.

Further to that I have said many times I spent a lot of time volunteering (with full pay) as a safety officer. We had no full time safety officers on site. I spent many hours learning everything and training other employees. Planning and holding meetings. I wrote manuals on spill response, flying safety and other issues. Here again the value can be calculated but is only a guess. Did I and my work bring down site accidents or was it better safety equipment and more general knowledge about safety. Was it stricter laws. No one knows for sure so was I being over paid for what I was producing. I realize it was all calculated out but it was all using guestimates. The company believed it was worth it. Amazing isn't that something originated by unions, safety, has become so important for the bottom line of many companies. Obviously the government at some time felt these employees were worth what they are being paid. It would be nice if we could just raise and lower salaries at will in line with the economy but it is impossible and any way we all know what would happen in that case.

Are government employees being paid too high across the board. I would say for sure they are at the top if not over the top. But that again is not totally the fault of the unions. The unions do not get to approve the contracts in this or any other case.

[logicalview]

To have a vibrant economy you need the majority of people supporting themselves throughout their life and not relying on public money to survive.

That explains not voting NDP and slashing public sector unions like the BCLDB.

[Looney]

Do you not even realize that government and public employees are a necessary evil and as such deserve a livable salary to survive. They do not create the situation they are involved in, it is necessity. I believe you know exactly what I meant when I said
"To have a vibrant economy you need the majority of people supporting themselves throughout their life and not relying on public money to survive" especially if you read all my posts. I am talking about minimum wage earners working all their life paying little or no taxes and actually contributing little to the economy due to their small incomes. Then later in life living off governemnt pensions, subsudies, free prescription drugs etc.. Even their retirement homes get paid for by public money. At least the public employees are paid enough that they contribute a great deal to the economy, they contribute to pension funds, buy homes etc. and aren't forced to live off public funds when they retire. In almost all cases I'll bet they continue to pay taxes even though the majority of their income no longer comes from public money. In most cases due to their income they do not even get free drugs and have to pay for their own retirement home. I believe that in the end we probably break even on government employees over lower paid workers. I would be willing to bet that if they were all paid minimum salary that in the end they would cost the public purse and the economy in general just as much.

[my5cents]

Prices cheaper in B.C.? I'm not sure about that. Whenever I'm in Alberta, I always buy at the Costco or Superstore Liquor stores. Products from BC are considerably cheaper like coolers and some wines. I've always said BCLCB outlets should be shut down as well as ICBC. I'm a snowbird and stay here in the summer and even my BMW bike is only $112 for 12 months of use for PL-PD. BC government is behind in alot of things. Cashiers at the BC liquor stores make how much money? How about Wal-Mart? There is probably a good $15 an hour price difference between the two. What makes the 2 so different. Right... the union. Bottom line is the government is finally trimming the fat. Unions are good- as long you belong to one. As a business person I think this is a sound economic decision. The next decision should be to let the Costco , Safeway, and Superstores allowed to open liquor outlets. The little guy says that they won't be able to make money. If it was so prosporous, then everyone (including myself) would open a liquor store. Now lets look at ICBC and those fatcats.

If you knock off the provincial taxes on liquor in both Alberta and BC. The cost of liquor in BC is less. When Alberta privatized the warehousing of liquor the wholesale price went up.
As for ICBC, try comparing the exact insurance in BC and in Alberta. Not what your neighbor heard from his brother-in-law. Apples to apples. At this moment ICBC is in full competition with private on own damage and special coverages (which is the money making part of auto insurance) and still had an excess of $800 million creamed off by the Liberals. So, who’s the fat cats ? Private Ins or ICBC ??
As for paying a decent wage ? Sure lets pay everyone minimum wage across the board, then everything will be cheap, right ? and the income tax to pay for all the services we need/demand, will be paid by...... ?

To all the union haters.... how would you like to work at a non-union job on salary,,, work your *bleep* off for 20 years and during an austerity period, they fire everyone older than 54. They didn't hide the fact, they stated that's what they were doing. "Hey, nothing wrong with your work, it's a business decision, we'll give you a great reference"

There is more to unions than what you perceive exorbitant wages, work to rule and strikes.

[hobbyguy]

And is the problem that union workers get too much, or is it that non-union workers are badly underpaid?

[Homeownertoo]

Interesting discussion. Homeowner, I see where you're coming from but I don't believe that theory of being paid for what you produce works all that often. Many times what you produce cannot be properly valued.

I think you misunderstood my point. It wasn't that people are (should) be paid for what they produce. That is, as you point out, largely incalculable. They get paid some approximation of what they contribute to the enterprise within the bounds of the supply and demand for labor.

[my5cents]

And is the problem that union workers get too much, or is it that non-union workers are badly underpaid?

Depends. Not all non-union workers are treated poorly and certainly not all union workers are treated fairly.

It's not just wages, either. I'm sure if you asked 100 people, the vast majority would say that an employer can't fire an employee for no reason, even if they provide severance. Oh and reasonable severance is one week for each year.

What about moving from one employer to another because of a better wages and holidays, then a few years later, the holidays and wages are cut back ? You're told "if you don't like it, the door is over there". Welcome to the world of non-union.

[my5cents]

I think you misunderstood my point. It wasn't that people are (should) be paid for what they produce. That is, as you point out, largely incalculable. They get paid some approximation of what they contribute to the enterprise within the bounds of the supply and demand for labor.

Also, isn't there other dynamics such as reliability and job dedication ?

Lets say I pay my employee minimum wage, no bonus, no overtime (trust me lots and lots of employers don't pay anything but straight time for overtime, or pay by "booked time" at straight time) The particular job entails a few months of training, then complete proficiency within 6 - 8 months.
First job that pays a buck more and that employee is gone.

Isn't paying a living wage even if to unskilled labor worth keeping a dedicated employee ? Lots of employers don't think so and we've all been "served"/"helped" by an employee who's only goal is finding a better job.

[flamingfingers]

Yup... imagine that!! Ha!

DEVELOPING STORY: Documents damaging for Clark Liberals
VANCOUVER/CKNW (AM980)
CKNW News Staff | Email news tips to [email protected]
7/12/2012
More trouble for Christy Clark's Liberals.

The NDP has freedom-of-information documents it says show the government had no intention of privatizing the Liquor Distribution Branch warehouses, until Exel Logisitics presented it's own business plan.

The NDP says Exel employs several BC Liberal insiders, including Patrick Kinsella.

The NDP says the responsible thing to do would be to immediately kill the privatization plans.

So far, no comment from the Liberals.
The lobbyists at the centre of the push to privatize the Liquor Distribution Branch are no strangers to controversy.

Since 2010 Progressive Group consultants Patrick Kinsella and Mark Jiles have been registered to lobby ministers Rich Coleman, Pat Bell, and Shirley Bond on behalf of Exel logistics.

But in 2008 they were accused of lobbying without properly registering.

Just last year Canada's lobbying commissioner ruled Jiles violated the lobbyist code of conduct.

Kinsella served as an advisor to Premier Christy Clark during her leadership bid, and co-chaired BC Liberal election campaigns in 2001 and 2005.

He was working for BC Rail before it was sold by the government, and faced allegations he also worked for the buyer, CN Rail.

Those were never proven.