Teachers suspended

[OnTheRoadAgain]

Good classroom management is hard to attain when you have some kids who have NO respect for authority, and REFUSE to follow even the simplest of instructions.

Expulsion of such students should only be used as an absolute LAST resort. But, unfortunately, denying schools access to any and all other forms of discipline means that expulsion is often the only tool educators feel they have left.

The law allows teachers to use “reasonable” force when necessary to respond to bad behaviour, but only the courts can decide what is “reasonable” and what is not whenever there is a dispute between the parents and the school. That said is it a good use of both taxpayers’ money and the courts time, to use the legal system every time there is such a dispute? I think not.

Without knowing what the circumstances were that led to the teacher grabbing the child’s hood, it’s hard to say for certain whether or not the teacher’s action was appropriate. But even if we assume it was not, there was no lasting physical harm to the child. Therefore, a disciplinary talk from the Teacher’s boss (the Principal) as to the inappropriateness of her reaction, and a notation in her file, should have been sufficient to avoid a repeat of this particular behaviour.

As for the child, if being yanked by the hoodie is enough to cause some sort of mental trauma, that kid has far more psychological problems than we’ve been told about. Kids are a lot more resilient than many give them credit for, and I doubt this particular incident would have much of a long-lasting effect on the kid. IMO making a big fuss about a relatively minor incident may have a far more harmful effect on the kid’s psyche in the long run. Think about the guilt the kid may feel, particularly if others in the class pick on him, as a result of his role in what happened to a possibly much loved teacher.

The other concern is that often kids who feel they’ve been able to get the teacher in trouble like this, will be even LESS likely to obey that teacher in the future than they were before. A situation which often results in even less discipline in the classroom, and more disruptions in the future; and that is NOT conducive to a good learning environment for ANY of the kids in that particular class.

Expulsion from the classroom is most often the first resort of the teacher. Go out to the hall, go out to the office - take a break. You have just sent the message to that BD kid that if he misbehaves, he'll get to leave the classroom. He won't have to particpate, or listen to the teacher. Expulsion from school is only used when a student has created a concern for the safety of others in the school.
The part of your post above that I bolded is absolutely incorrect. I have posted the law so you can read that it does not allow for that. So, in that regard, it does not depend on our perception, assumption, conjecture, or even any circumstance, as explained clearly in the law. Therefore, it is not hard to say the teacher's actions were inappropriate, which is why she is suspended.

For kids who have 'far more problems than we know about", there are many in the classrooms, some are yet undiagnosed. So it is certainly not right to treat them with excessive force, or any kind of force until we understand what is causing their bad behaviour. And for that matter a child need not have any disorders or disabilities to have a bad day, or a bad week or even a bad month due to outside unknown circumstances.
Sometimes people take for granted that all kids are resilient. We should all know this by now, especially with the recent and past suicides from the affects of bullying on children. Kids, just like adults have different levels of resilience, depending on their backgrounds, personalities, and a whole plethora of factors. We cannot simply assume and conclude that this would not affect this particular child in a negative way or leave lasting psychological damage whatsoever. You cannot even say there was no lasting physical harm to the child. He could have whiplash, throat problems, bruising and even cuts from the zipper.

The part of your post that I have italicized above is also ludicrous for reasons I've already stated.

Now a question for you, and anyone else who wishes to respond:

What would you do if your ELEVEN YEAR OLD child came home from school with a ripped hoodie, bruises on his neck, and a small cut from a metal zipper, and he told you that his teacher grabbed his hoodie from behind and dragged him?

[OnTheRoadAgain]

[
Sounds great in theory. I think corporal punishment, in appropriate measure, worked better.

Isn't it ironic then, that the kids from that generation have turned out like this. Something tells me it didn't work as well as we thought it did, we are seeing the results of this now.[/quote]
It's ironic that the kids from that generation are now raising undisciplined, unnappreciative, something for nothing, actions do not have consequences, “I’m not responsible”, “the world owes me a living”, “give it to me now” problem kids. You're right. Something tells me it didn't work as well as them kids thought it would, we are seeing the results of this now.[/quote]

That's what I'm saying.
We outlawed physical punishment without replacing it with discipline.
We just don't have time these days to discipline students. We just send them home for a day off alone in front of the video games, television and internet.
Would be much faster and easier if we just went backwards and allowed adults to use physical force to make kids do what they want them to do. But we know that is wrong, so we don't.

Sometimes people get carried away and forget that they are talking about five percent of students with behaviour disorders.
This is exactly why the teenagers hate hearing us talk like this. We are painting them all with the same brush.
If we don't utilize good discipline and human resources to teach our children respectful behaviour, we are going to raise that five percent a few more notches.

[keith1612]

Expulsion from the classroom is most often the first resort of the teacher. Go out to the hall, go out to the office - take a break. You have just sent the message to that BD kid that if he misbehaves, he'll get to leave the classroom. He won't have to particpate, or listen to the teacher. Expulsion from school is only used when a student has created a concern for the safety of others in the school.
The part of your post above that I bolded is absolutely incorrect. I have posted the law so you can read that it does not allow for that. So, in that regard, it does not depend on our perception, assumption, conjecture, or even any circumstance, as explained clearly in the law. Therefore, it is not hard to say the teacher's actions were inappropriate, which is why she is suspended.

For kids who have 'far more problems than we know about", there are many in the classrooms, some are yet undiagnosed. So it is certainly not right to treat them with excessive force, or any kind of force until we understand what is causing their bad behaviour. And for that matter a child need not have any disorders or disabilities to have a bad day, or a bad week or even a bad month due to outside unknown circumstances.
Sometimes people take for granted that all kids are resilient. We should all know this by now, especially with the recent and past suicides from the affects of bullying on children. Kids, just like adults have different levels of resilience, depending on their backgrounds, personalities, and a whole plethora of factors. We cannot simply assume and conclude that this would not affect this particular child in a negative way or leave lasting psychological damage whatsoever. You cannot even say there was no lasting physical harm to the child. He could have whiplash, throat problems, bruising and even cuts from the zipper.

The part of your post that I have italicized above is also ludicrous for reasons I've already stated.

Now a question for you, and anyone else who wishes to respond:

What would you do if your ELEVEN YEAR OLD child came home from school with a ripped hoodie, bruises on his neck, and a small cut from a metal zipper, and he told you that his teacher grabbed his hoodie from behind and dragged him?

well i can tell you what my dad would have done in 1970 and i would do now, the union would not be protection for him!!
it would not be a good thing i can assure you.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

to fire a employee for theft but give a 14 day holiday for assault on a child to me is corrupt.
.

Profound statement.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

well i also think violent kids should be taken from school for good, 100% no chance of return.
there are places they can be taught other than public school, say prison.
its a 2 way street and thats the same as the bullying issue, they catch a real bully and suspend them for 6 days after the bully beats a kid violently,
thats a failure by the school system to provide a safe enviroment.
its a joke the school board preaches anti bullying and then does nothing serious to violent offenders.
there is no place in schools for violence from kids or teachers, its supposed to be a safe place.

What do you mean by "violent kids'?
What do you mean by being taught in jail?
You do know we cannot put eleven year olds in jail?
The school board does not have the power to expel students without an appeal process.
The school board does not have the power to deny education even to children who require special education , extra supervision, or behavioural assistance.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

well i can tell you what my dad would have done in 1970 and i would do now, the union would not be protection for him!!
it would not be a good thing i can assure you.

Today, a lawsuit is likely, otherwise in the least, a parents meeting with the principal, school board, and imminent reprimand for the teacher, according to law.

Back in the day it is likely that your parents first response would be : Why did the teacher do that to you? What did you do to deserve that? They might call the school to get the teacher's side, and then, they might send you to your room and follow you in with the belt for misbehaving in school, because back then that would be the 'right thing to do'.

We don't even treat animals this way.

[keith1612]

Today, a lawsuit is likely, otherwise in the least, a parents meeting with the principal, school board, and imminent reprimand for the teacher, according to law.

Back in the day it is likely that your parents first response would be : Why did the teacher do that to you? What did you do to deserve that? They might call the school to get the teacher's side, and then, they might send you to your room and follow you in with the belt for misbehaving in school, because back then that would be the 'right thing to do'.

We don't even treat animals this way.

even back in the early 70's if a teacher would have laid his hands on me my dad would have went into the school and beat the useless dog till he cried.
it wasnt acceptable where i lived then and should not be now.

[sooperphreek]

our society is freakin nuts and its no wonder why things are so screwed up. and thats why there are viral sob stories about "poor" kids and how tough their lives are. this mentality of the hands off approach will explode like a tinderbox. its like that analogy in anger management about the checkout person who takes it on the chin over and over (like lunatic people in society want) and then they buy a gun and kill 5 people when they crack. my uncle is a teacher. and while he would never want to use physicality against a student he has colleagues that are off on stress leave because the kids are using their immunity against the teachers. one teacher had to stop teaching and go on stress because he had a female student who would come right up close to his face and try to provoke him into hitting her. if it was any other venue he would have never let any other person get away with that in respect to himself and his dignity. he came to the point where he had so much rage about it that he was having dreams that he was beating that student to a pulp. who wins in that situation? society? the teacher? or the student who knows that they have the ability to do those actions with impunity? why are the administrators letting their staff be treated that way? and because they do let that happen not only is that a message to the kid who did it, but to his friends who see the precedence and will do it as well. if that is the recipe for school is there any wonder why we have shades of that in society? i was talking with some colleagues of mine the other day about the strap and we all had the same consensus. we deserved what we got-and we all didnt have any hard feelings against the adult that did it to us. and the funny thing is we laughed about what a bad day those were-because we usually got it at home from dad too. lol but hey. im just a victim right? and had it soooooo hard. im glad im not a cream puff.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

Here's what BCTF tells their teachers:

Classroom conflict is more likely to be reduced if
you:
• are in the classroom when your students arrive.
• are organized and prepared.
• insist that everyone be treated with respect.
• seek student opinions.
• consider student feelings.
• listen to your students.
• maintain your sense of humour.
• assist students to make appropriate choices.
• teach students decision-making skills.
• encourage students to learn from their mistakes.
• use a quiet, friendly tone of voice.
• build on individual student’s strengths.
• provide tasks that enhance the self-esteem of all students
• have a low-key, consistent, and matter-of-fact manner
• enforce consistently the consequences adopted by the class
• move around the classroom.
• use praise and positive reinforcement.

What does not work
Even with the most tact and careful preparation, students will test you. Let them know that while you disapprove of their actions, you still value them. If you are going to show that you are angry, do it because you have decided it is appropriate,
not because you are “out of control.” You should touch a student only in extreme circumstances
such as imminent danger to yourself, other students, or the student in question and file a violent incident report immediately. Be aware of the legal rights and responsibilities of both teachers and students. If you have any concerns or questions, contact your school staff rep.

Discipline problems may arise when a teacher:

• accepts excuses, bargains, or blames
• acts hastily without knowing the implications of actions
• offers “bribes/rewards” for behaviour
• preaches, nags, criticizes, shouts, and threatens
• punishes as a way to teach appropriate behaviour
• punishes the whole class for the misdeeds of a few
• rescues students rather than teaching problem solving skills
• uses put-downs, sarcasm, embarrassment, or humiliation.

Dealing with power struggles
Power struggles can be difficult for beginning
teachers. When this happens to you, try to:
• ignore the student’s attempt to engage you in a power struggle.
• describe to the student, in objective and explicit terms, the unacceptable behaviour.
• give a warning, emphasize the consequence, and then follow through.
• arrange for time out from the classroom.
• consult appropriate school personnel for advice.
• communicate with the parents to discuss a behaviour management plan

Guidelines for effective classroom management:

Three basics to remember:

Monitor student behaviour
Be consistent
Promptly manage inappropriate behaviour

(Strategies are addressed on page 26)

http://bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Public/New ... ndbook.pdf

The gist of suggestions would also work in a home environment.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

soop, the stories you tell make me think those teachers really were not cut out for the job of working with teens.
also make me think that those teachers may have had other contributing factors to their inability to manage their challenging students.
Administration do not allow their staff to be treated that way, the teacher allows it.
Teens don't treat teachers poorly simply because they see their peers do it. It has to be in their psyche, or in their hormones, or their frustration through inability to be heard, or understood.

You are not a victim because you don't see yourself as that. You believe in corporal punishment. Your paradigm will not allow you to see yourself as a victim, because you have rationally admitted guilt, and believe that your punishment was appropriate. You believe it is fair and just and appropriate to strike children when they misbehave. Interesting that you are humoured by the fact that your parents would issue corporal punishment to you because the principal did.

Sometimes people use humour to minimize the discomfort of having to protect the image of our parents, that they were good, and always did the right thing. (Most commediens will tell you they had or have 'screwed up lives' and their therapy is comedy). Children in classrooms who act as class clowns also often have problems they are trying to disguise by seeking approval from their peers and teachers through entertaining them at inappropriate times.

I was strapped twice in elementary school. I remain resentful that the leader of our school abused his power to intimidate me (along with many others) when I had no chance to defend myself. One strapping was because I (along with two other 3rd graders) had snow on our mitts. The principal heard there was a snowball fight in the playground. He came out the door and told everyone in this section to go to the office. There were sixteen of us lined up. Myself and three others tried to explain that we were not involved at all in throwing snowballs, but we were building a snowman. We got strapped anyways. In hindsight, how could he possibly have said, ok then, you three get back to class and I'll strap the rest of you?
The second strapping was because I was looking out the window rather than paying attention to my work. The teacher sent me to the office, and the principal took me in the back room, just the two of us, and strapped my hands, front and back.
Both times, when I got home, I received more corporal punishment for getting into trouble at school, and shaming the family name. That was more about my father's pride than ensuring I was behaving well at school. It was for his benefit, not mine. It was so that he could feel that he did something about it, he didn't just ignore it. It was quick an salient. It was abusive.

Creating such confusion in children, telling them to trust, and then breaking that trust that we will be protected by these men in charge of us, who are supposed to be loving and teaching us can cause different results in different people with different personalities, temperaments, self esteem and resilience levels. . . As we can plainly see, just between the two of us, you and me.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

Kids with a good sense of self esteem don't treat their peers or their teachers poorly.
In any research and study I have done, I have never heard it said that corporal punishment or other abuse of power raises self esteem. I have heard it can lower self esteem in children. We would be defeating our purpose of raising kids with good sense of self.
Would anyone argue with that?

Tips for fostering self-esteem
• acknowledge positive qualities
• be non-judgmental, and accept students as they are
• demonstrate appropriate ways of releasing anger
• develop skills to help a child feel better about
herself/himself
• emphasize what each child knows
• encourage positively; say, “You can succeed”
• give students choices
• inform parents/guardians about student growth
• keep boundaries that allow give and take
• listen reflectively and genuinely give support for
growth and change
• participate, facilitate, and share feelings
• provide a safe classroom—minimum risk fosters
openness and honesty
• provide acceptance
• teach self-awareness
• provide undivided recognition
• reaffirm a child’s existence with a compliment or
an acknowledgment
• respect others’ feelings
• see the uniqueness of each student
• separate the action from the person
• structure opportunities for success
• use humour, but not at the expense of students
• use “I messages” such as “Heather, I hear
exciting events in your story”
• validate feelings.

[sooperphreek]

you-and those kids are all victims. and we live in a society where there are too many. sucks to be youz. as far as your snowman thing it wasnt that he chose to ignore your pleas. you were guilty by association. if he let you off he would have to let every tom dick and harry. and as far as staring out the window....you took your chances and you had to suffer the consequences. cest la vie. if i drive 5 kms past the speed limit i wont be hurting anyone but the cop has every right to give me a ticket. as far as that teacher? he was a well respected award winning teacher that did many after hours events like extra curricular debating events with students. he had to give up on the few because of the subversive attitudes of people like you that are protecting the rights of the many victims out there. but hey....the kids he impacted just have to buck up and suck it up right? by the way.....it was at venice high school in LA where greece was filmed just in case you think i was making this up.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

you-and those kids are all victims. and we live in a society where there are too many. sucks to be youz. as far as your snowman thing it wasnt that he chose to ignore your pleas. you were guilty by association. if he let you off he would have to let every tom dick and harry. and as far as staring out the window....you took your chances and you had to suffer the consequences. cest la vie. if i drive 5 kms past the speed limit i wont be hurting anyone but the cop has every right to give me a ticket. as far as that teacher? he was a well respected award winning teacher that did many after hours events like extra curricular debating events with students. he had to give up on the few because of the subversive attitudes of people like you that are protecting the rights of the many victims out there. but hey....the kids he impacted just have to buck up and suck it up right? by the way.....it was at venice high school in LA where greece was filmed just in case you think i was making this up.

But your honour, I was not associated or associating with them. I was building a snowman with these two girls.
The rule is no throwing snowballs, there is no rule that says no building snowmen. Tom, Dick, Harry and the other ten kids were having snowball fights a little further out in the school. You saw us all when you came out, and we three were close to the school doors, while the snowball fighting was about 20 feet further out from us.
(Of course a principal will not give a 10 year old the chance to explain, especially in front of all the others, while the bell is ringing to go back to class. And a ten year old might not even have that language to defend themselves.



I can make no connection in your by the way statement.

[OnTheRoadAgain]

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46785

you can vote and express your personal opinions there.

[Merry]

please show me any single law that says teachers can use force to correct bad behavior.
parents are not allowed that so i hardly believe teachers have it.
it may be a union rule it sure as hell isnt a law.
last i heard in Canada putting your hands on ANYONE for reasons of other than self protection or protection of others was against the law.
you can not beat a child because its not conducive to a good learning environment.
thats assault.

Section 43 of the Criminal Code says:
Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.
This means that, under some circumstances, when parents, caregivers, or teachers use reasonable force to control a child or keep the child or other children, safe, they may not be found guilty of a criminal offence.
However, section 43 is not a defence for every action a parent, teacher, or caregiver may take. A parent, teacher or caregiver may only use reasonable force. And they may only use that reasonable force when it is connected to their duties to the child. Section 43 cannot be used as a defence, for example, when a child has been harmed or abused.
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/f ... b-cce.html