Is search and rescue mandatory?

[sooperphreek]

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcol ... -not-fines

the question popped in my head when i read this. the rescuers want compliance which is logical. unfortunately people choose not to listen. is that because the people know that they will be rescued? why not ignore rescues in the zones that are marked off and just let the people that roll the dice take their chances? if it is something that is so expensive and the costs need to be made up then why are they doing the rescues? i thought that was why they were trained and paid for - so why all of the sudden should it be like elective surgery that people have to pay for?

[simnut]

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/obey-north-shore-rescuers-want-compliance-not-fines

the question popped in my head when i read this. the rescuers want compliance which is logical. unfortunately people choose not to listen. is that because the people know that they will be rescued? why not ignore rescues in the zones that are marked off and just let the people that roll the dice take their chances? if it is something that is so expensive and the costs need to be made up then why are they doing the rescues? i thought that was why they were trained and paid for - so why all of the sudden should it be like elective surgery that people have to pay for?

Whats the famous line....."you can't fix stupid!" And we will always have to have services available for these "stupid" types. You will always have people that look at a condemned bridge for instance...and try to cross it because THEY think it looked safe!

i thought that was why they were trained and paid for

Not sure if you noticed in that article, but North Shore Search and Rescue are volunteers(as with all PEP SAR).....not paid! Their expenses are covered but that is it.....they are part of the Provincial Emergency Program. They take their training on their own time and expense (extensive training)....leave jobs to do a search on their own time and expense (time away from work etc) ....it's THESE volunteers that put their life on the line to find these dummies! There are PEP SAR groups all over British Columbia, all doing the same thing.....looking for, or rescuing people that DIDN'T take the precautions to keep themselves out of trouble in the first place! North Shore SAR hits the news often because of the scale and frequency they are called out.

Our local group, with which I am a SAR manager for, raises all our own funds to buy our equipment (SAR vehicle, ropes, harnesses, stretchers etc) to do the job we need to do in our area. I have to yet remember a search or a rescue that wasn't the result of some "dumb" decisions by the victims...be it no compass, improperly dressed, entering a river in an open canoe that has rapids overrunning because of high rain falls, etc. It happens all over BC!

I agree, these people should be charged (as in financial) for the cost of the SAR procedure. It's like a speeding ticket.....get caught speeding...pay the fine...and hopefully learn your lesson. In my opinion, MOST search and rescues are NOT because of accidents.....it's because of "dumb" thinking...or no thinking at all.

[Noisy Boater]

Just leave them there. If they risk their life for a little excitement see how excited they are about spending a couple nites in the boonies

[bob vernon]

If the authorities, like the RCMP, have knowledge that someone is missing and likely out in the wilds, they have a duty to try and rescue them. Leaving people out in the countryside to teach them a lesson just isn't an option. If someone died in the course of having a lesson given to them by leaving them out for a couple of nights, it wouldn't take long for new law to be written.

Taking them to court, even in a civil court, and extracting money from them is about as severe a lesson as can be given. Incidentally, there have been a couple of wealthy European tourist groups go skiing out of bounds recently. And requiring rescue. The ski resorts haven't been very vocal about billing them, have they? Middle class Canadians...... yes. Quite a double standard.

[sooperphreek]

If the authorities, like the RCMP, have knowledge that someone is missing and likely out in the wilds, they have a duty to try and rescue them. Leaving people out in the countryside to teach them a lesson just isn't an option. If someone died in the course of having a lesson given to them by leaving them out for a couple of nights, it wouldn't take long for new law to be written.

Taking them to court, even in a civil court, and extracting money from them is about as severe a lesson as can be given. Incidentally, there have been a couple of wealthy European tourist groups go skiing out of bounds recently. And requiring rescue. The ski resorts haven't been very vocal about billing them, have they? Middle class Canadians...... yes. Quite a double standard.

if the rcmp has a duty to make sure someone is safe - why is it that they then bring in volunteers? why isnt the rcmp rescue team brought in much like a swat team would be? and then there is a bill that has to be accounted for after? that is the thing that makes no sense. i agree with the tough love statement. people go out of bounds without compunction because they know they will get rescued. take that luxury away and they will smarten up pretty fast.

[simnut]

if the rcmp has a duty to make sure someone is safe - why is it that they then bring in volunteers? why isnt the rcmp rescue team brought in much like a swat team would be?

The Provincial Emergency Program SAR IS the resource of professional volunteers that they call in.....SAR is a specialized service that the police services just don't have the budget for.....and something BC residents don't have to pay for (expenses yes, hourly pay no). PEP SAR groups are made up of people that are WILLING to do the job and there is nothing wrong with the province taking "advantaged" of that.

and then there is a bill that has to be accounted for after? that is the thing that makes no sense.

As a SAR manager, I fully agree with you...anyone that blatantly disregards "rules" and gets into trouble......send them the bill!!! But, how many people complain about paying for an ambulance ride even though the reason they required the ambulance was of their own doing?

i agree with the tough love statement. people go out of bounds without compunction because they know they will get rescued. take that luxury away and they will smarten up pretty fast.

Personally, I involved myself with PEP SAR more for the innocent incidents (getting lost, falling while hiking....etc) , AND for the loved ones that are worried about the person lost or hurt. You have to ONCE talk to a husband, wife....mom or dad at the base camp to get information...see their faces...and most normal human beings will step in to help.....a very important aspect of going in to "rescue" the dummies that ski out of bounds......

[Queen K]

Simnut, by local, do you mean Kelowna?

You have been so very extremely busy lately, no less than five hunters reported missing? Amongst other searches.

Thank you so much for your efforts, time, skills, and resources by which you save peoples lives. You've been at the center of triumphs and tragedies in 2012 and have not gone unnoticed.



I read about how a mountain climber in the Rockies had a gps tool which pinpointed exactly where they were on the side of the mountain, aiding the rescuers to find the group. I'm thinking that those gps units should become de facto for the average person so that hunters, roadtrippers, back country hikers, climbers, heck, anyone who may be concerned with safety can be found quickly.

[Ken7]

Personally, I involved myself with PEP SAR more for the innocent incidents (getting lost, falling while hiking....etc) , AND for the loved ones that are worried about the person lost or hurt. You have to ONCE talk to a husband, wife....mom or dad at the base camp to get information...see their faces...and most normal human beings will step in to help.....a very important aspect of going in to "rescue" the dummies that ski out of bounds......

First off good on you for your efforts volunteering.

I was wondering if you became injured, are you somehow insured? What would your employer do if you were off longer then sick leave?

Sadly as others stated, you can't fix stupid. It will only take a injured volunteer going bankrupt for others to say, I'm done!

[simnut]

First off good on you for your efforts volunteering.

I was wondering if you became injured, are you somehow insured? What would your employer do if you were off longer then sick leave?

Sadly as others stated, you can't fix stupid. It will only take a injured volunteer going bankrupt for others to say, I'm done!

Thanks Ken, and our biggest reward is to see the faces of "lost" and family when a search is successful...and simply a handshake or hug saying thank you. More people in our society need, or should know how that feels. In MOST cases, there is even a hug and a handshake if it is a body recovery......families appreciate even that.

We are fully covered by the province during the "job" or enroute to and back. Many of our employers back us 100%, from leaving with no notice at all to any "ramifications" resulting from doing this volunteer work. Many of our employers financially support our SAR groups also!

I have been sued by relatives in 2 cases, suing me because as a SAR manager I would not put my group into life threatening situations for recoveries. In both cases, I was only debriefed by the government and never stepped into a court room or talked to a lawyer...the province dealt with the whole situation. The PEP program is a VERY good process.....

[simnut]

Simnut, by local, do you mean Kelowna?

I am on Vancouver Island.

Thank you so much for your efforts, time, skills, and resources by which you save peoples lives. You've been at the center of triumphs and tragedies in 2012 and have not gone unnoticed.

Thank you very much.....we need to recognize the ground searchers that finally find the body.....resulting from exposure or even suicide. It is hard on them. Finding the body is rewarding, to a point.......but the searchers would much rather have made it on time. The province provides critical debriefing (mental aid) for PEP which is basically mandatory for each searcher to attend after the "not so nice" searches. One of the most difficult things for a ground searcher is to have a inconclusive search......that search will forever be in your mind......wondering if you could have done more.

I'm thinking that those gps units should become de facto for the average person so that hunters, roadtrippers, back country hikers, climbers, heck, anyone who may be concerned with safety can be found quickly.

DITTO!!!

[sooperphreek]

so simnut....as a sar manager you are paid right?

[Roadster]

Paid or not, and I believe they are not, it is a system we all need and are given. When someone stupidly goes off past marked areas they deserve to pay in full what it would cost them to be rescued and IMO it should be mandatory just because all Canadians deserve to be rescued, as long as the team can safely do it without losing lives of our volenteers that is.
If I as lost and it wasnt my fault I would be happy to see them and willing to pay for their efforts, why not make the stupid pay, Canadian or not,,,
I know someone who is a SR volenteer and its no easy thing to do, training and being out there finding people dead and alive, its very hard work. Get lost,,, be willing to pay something into it stupid or not and be glad they came if you make it out alive. Mandatory, sure why not, they would be wrong to go on Stupid and let you die, its for everyone but the stupid should be find for their actions.

[simnut]

so simnut....as a sar manager you are paid right?

No, the entire PEP SAR group at the local level is volunteer. The RCMP are our local search command, and EVERY officer that I have dealt with in a SAR situation was awesome....great teamwork! If we needed a helicopter.....one was ordered in. NOT ONCE did the RCMP make us feel like we were their grunts....they stepped back and let us do our thing with great appreciation.

A SAR manager has additional training.....how to efficiently search a said area for instance....keep others in your group safe and, yup...how to CYA (cover your *bleep*). The last item really bothers me when people...as volunteers....take time away from their family and work..... still have to worry about being sued by the very people or relatives you are trying to help. I guess that is just the way society is now aday!

There are other people out there...paid or not...that have to worry about being sued while doing something to help people too.

Police officers, ambulance personnel, a person just walking down the street and lends assistance......doctors....nurses....firefighters .....and the list goes on. Just a little something to keep in mind .....

[Roadster]

Simnut, you should be like the first aid level, cant be sued for doing the job. People have tried to sue first aiders and so far (as far as I know) no one has done anything outside of the training and so did not make it to court because after all its a "good sumaritan" act kinda thing and so is technically not open to sue unless someone did say a tracheostomy job they werent trained to do. In first aid people can die as in any situation but the act of trying to save people in a volenteer setting, ya, some nut cases still think only of money when someone dies so they try to blame those helping. Shame on them for thinking that way.

[simnut]

Simnut, you should be like the first aid level, cant be sued for doing the job. People have tried to sue first aiders and so far (as far as I know) no one has done anything outside of the training and so did not make it to court because after all its a "good sumaritan" act kinda thing and so is technically not open to sue unless someone did say a tracheostomy job they werent trained to do. In first aid people can die as in any situation but the act of trying to save people in a volenteer setting, ya, some nut cases still think only of money when someone dies so they try to blame those helping. Shame on them for thinking that way.

Your are correct Roadster. IF you do WHAT your are trained for, and you do it CORRECTLY...you are usually protected by law. But, from personal experience.....the field situations are NEVER like classroom scenarios. There was many situations that we took the "job" further than what we were trained for...because that made the difference between getting it done, or not getting it done. I have seen our volunteers jump into a river (without a safety rope)that was flowing deep and hard enough to drown the person we were searching for....and grab the body so that it wouldn't get away again....such is the drive of these SAR volunteers. I know SAR members that would give mouth to mouth without "protective" equipment if it meant keeping a person alive.

Look at the faces of any PEP search person on TV news....you will not see a volunteer...you will see a professional. As PEP volunteers, we consider ourselves as professional volunteers...trained to do a particular job.....and take the pride in doing so. Our "guys and gals" will go farther than what we/ve been trained for....for no reason other than to bring an end to a situation...either for the "victim" or the families involved. But the province will back us.....within reason.... the entire PEP SAR program, like I've said before...is an awesome setup!

All those that have gotten a genuine thank you from someone in need...whether giving someone 5 bucks.....helping to pickup a bag of groceries that have dropped....or changed a tire for an older person beside the highway.....raise your hand! Great feeling...isn't it? Who would have accepted money to do that? If you are willing to help someone like that...you probably won't accept money to do it....the thank you is more than enough!

Sorry about the babble....but as you can see....this is a bit of a passion for me...and thankfully...many more out there!