ICBC wants to increase rates by 5%

[Dizzy1]

So I have to pay so many dollars to an insurance company, that i have no choice in choosing, I get minimal rebates or incentives for years of safe driving, I have to subsidize other peoples poor driving habits instead of them having rates go up and up, and once there is a certain amount of money in their piggy bank, the Government can just come in and help themselves thus increasing what I have to pay for insurance that is forced upon me.

Hmmm, interesting.

[my5cents]

So I have to pay so many dollars to an insurance company, that i have no choice in choosing, I get minimal rebates or incentives for years of safe driving, I have to subsidize other peoples poor driving habits instead of them having rates go up and up, and once there is a certain amount of money in their piggy bank, the Government can just come in and help themselves thus increasing what I have to pay for insurance that is forced upon me.

Hmmm, interesting.

I completely agree that it is wrong for the government to use insurance money to supplement their coffers.

However several of the points you tried to make are wrong.

"I have to pay so many dollars to an insurance company, that i have no choice in choosing" You only have to buy basic minimum coverage from ICBC. $200,000 public liability coverage. In other words just enough to allow you to put plates on your vehicle and legally drive it on the road. ALL the rest you can buy from the private sector.

"I get minimal rebates or incentives" If I went to a store and because of my history with the store they gave me 43% off my purchases, I'd be pretty happy.

"I have to subsidize other people........ instead of (their) rates go up" You should check the scale for the "Claims Rated Scale", I think the rates go up pretty high. I don't know, I guess banning the poor drivers completely ?

"the Government can just come in and help themselves, thus increasing what I have to pay" Yes the first part is correct, but the money the government takes is from the optional side of the insurance pie. You can buy all the optional coverage you want, ie Liability Coverage over $200,000, Comprehensive, Collision, etc from the private sector, excluding the government from getting access to any of your insurance dollars.

ICBC doesn't make money on basic coverage. I don't believe any private company could either. The payouts for liability, ie pain and suffering, etc are dictated by the courts. Jurisdictions like Quebec have curbed these payments by legislating "No Fault" insurance. That's why we see Quebec rates that are lower for liability coverage.

In a no fault system it is like Workers Compensation, if a co-worker of yours does something stupid and you are severely injured you can't sue him/her, you get medical, rehab, perhaps even a pension for the deficit but you don't get the big "payday" for the injury.

The reason the government (NDP) started up ICBC was because of the problems the driving public suffered at the hands of private automobile insurance.

Ironically back then, those who were against government insurance (those who had already moved through the "bad" youth years of high insurance rates, denial of coverage etc) were adamant that tax dollars would be subsidizing ICBC. Now the opposite is the case.

We've all heard of the horror stories with travel health insurance, extrapolate that to auto insurance.

For me ICBC isn't perfect by a long way, but I'd rather have the devil I know than the devil I don't know.

[Dizzy1]

"I have to pay so many dollars to an insurance company, that i have no choice in choosing" You only have to buy basic minimum coverage from ICBC. $200,000 public liability coverage. In other words just enough to allow you to put plates on your vehicle and legally drive it on the road. ALL the rest you can buy from the private sector.

The thing is though, basic insurance is the only thing required to insure a vehicle, and thats where they got us, thats where the rate increases are occuring. The thing with private insurance is, that they can shift the money around to where its needed to keep their rates competitive. Also, from a consumer point of things, its much easier to have one simple policy from one vendor then trying to deal with several if you need to make a claim, especially the way ICBC's history of not trying to pay out.

"I get minimal rebates or incentives" If I went to a store and because of my history with the store they gave me 43% off my purchases, I'd be pretty happy.

So would I, but I'd be happier if I went to another store with that offer and they gave me 53%, go to another store and they might give me 53% plus a gift card. My last private insurance provider gave me 60% plus 2 free windshields and waived my deductible had the time come I needed to, because I had the choice to shop around and they know that and given my driving record, I'm easy money for them so they like to pass out the lolipops to get my attention and give them my business.

"I have to subsidize other people........ instead of (their) rates go up" You should check the scale for the "Claims Rated Scale", I think the rates go up pretty high. I don't know, I guess banning the poor drivers completely ?

I think the max is 205%, and it takes quite a few infractions/claims to get up there. A private company might look at that driver and simply not insure them due to their high risk status, thus keeping more money in the companies books enabling them to attract better drivers by offering lower rates and perks.

"the Government can just come in and help themselves, thus increasing what I have to pay" Yes the first part is correct, but the money the government takes is from the optional side of the insurance pie. You can buy all the optional coverage you want, ie Liability Coverage over $200,000, Comprehensive, Collision, etc from the private sector, excluding the government from getting access to any of your insurance dollars.

The way I see it is that the Government is way too involved in many things in this Province, whether it be hydro, transit, healthcare or car insurance. Bottom line for me is that any money going into an insurance portfolio is there for insurance, the more money they build up, the more options they have to benefit those who have good driving records and not to fund the Governments projects and it really doesn't matter what part of the insurance pie its coming from. If its coming from the optional coverage side, instead of grabing that money, it could be better spent shifting it to the basic side and give the good drivers the rebates/perks they deserve. Once the basic side is pulling in a surplus, move it over to the optional side and so on.

For me ICBC isn't perfect by a long way, but I'd rather have the devil I know than the devil I don't know.

Ah, but the devil you don't know can be a very faithful and fair companion ;)

[my5cents]

The thing is though, basic insurance is the only thing required to insure a vehicle, and thats where they got us, thats where the rate increases are occuring. The thing with private insurance is, that they can shift the money around to where its needed to keep their rates competitive.

I can't see where that works. They can fudge the numbers and artificially charge more for own damage and reduce liability, but it's still the same bottom line.

Also, from a consumer point of things, its much easier to have one simple policy from one vendor then ["than" ?] trying to deal with several if you need to make a claim

Well in a private insurance situation, how can you guarantee that the car that hits you is insured with the same company you are dealing with. If you are not at fault and you are injured, the money isn't going to come from your insurance company, it's coming from the other driver's company. If you've got collision coverage, your company will fix your car if you pay your deductible and try to collect from the other driver's insurance company, but your insurance company isn't going to pay out a bodily injury settlement and try to collect from the other company.

especially the way ICBC's history of not trying to pay out.

Yup, if only we had private insurance, they'd pay and pay and pay, with never a problem.

My last private insurance provider gave me 60% plus 2 free windshields and waived my deductible had the time come I needed to, because I had the choice to shop around and they know that and given my driving record, I'm easy money for them so they like to pass out the lolipops to get my attention and give them my business.

Well all the coverage you describe is optional coverage, "windshields", any coverage that has a deductible, so what's stopping you from getting this coverage with 60% off ?

I think the max is 205%, and it takes quite a few infractions/claims to get up there. A private company might look at that driver and simply not insure them due to their high risk status, thus keeping more money in the companies books enabling them to attract better drivers by offering lower rates and perks.

ICBC's brochures only show up to 205% but it just keeps going up. So in your "perfect world" of private insurance, this bad driver can't buy insurance, so now you have a much higher percentage of uninsured vehicles on the road, like the USA, how does that work ? Now when you get hit my one of these dummies, your "uninsured coverage" fixes your car and pays your loss. What's going to happen with your low priced coverage, it will have to go up.

.......If its coming from the optional coverage side, instead of grabing that money, it could be better spent shifting it to the basic side and give the good drivers the rebates/perks they deserve. Once the basic side is pulling in a surplus, move it over to the optional side and so on.

"Once the basic side is pulling in a surplus....." ?????????? So the payout ordered by the courts is just a anomaly ???

The only way to curb the liability payouts is to implement a "no fault" system. I don't doubt for a second, that if private got their mud hooks on the entire auto insurance pie in BC, the rates would go up for liability and their answer would be to lobby for no fault.

Ah, but the devil you don't know can be a very faithful and fair companion ;)

I was around when there was no ICBC, and left to their own, private insurance was a long way from "very faithful" or "fair".
All you have to do is look at travel health insurance and see how they treat their customers.

"Yes Mr Smith you did break your arm while on vacation, but in your application for insurance you said you had never been treated for a heart condition and we've found out that you had a physical check-up and during the check-up they checked your heart. In your policy, being examined for a heart condition falls under the definition of "being treated for a heart condition", so we are very sorry but we are denying your claim for the treatment of your arm."

Yes, in the private insurance world generally "material to the loss" isn't part of the mix. Anything to get out of paying.

[Dizzy1]

Some people like to have meatloaf every Monday, spaghetti on Tuesday, liver and onions on Wednesday and so on, thats their comfort zone, they're worried about switching things around, and thats fine ... personally I like to switch things around and try different things. The same thing go for insurance, I'm not afraid to try new things, I have had oppurtunites to have private and Government controlled and out of my experiences and cost effectiviness, private has been better every time. I've been fortunate to have the freedom to shop around, I've been fortunate to have better coverage at half the cost I paid in BC, I've been fortunate to have companies come to me for my business offering me incentives that ICBCers can only fantasize about. Sorry, but for my bottom dollar, private is better IMHO.

And to be honest, when I'm required to purchase something for years on top of years and then the Government comes in and just helps themselves to my money causing me to have to put more money in ... thats wrong, period! It doesn't matter what part of ICBC the money is coming from, it is coming from ICBC forcing my rates to go up. And until we actually get some fair competition in this Province, the Government and ICBC will continue to take advantage of us.

And to be honest, having the "privilege" of having optional companies on my optional coverage is not enough, its not true competition. Having the option to put all my insurance eggs in one broker basket is the only way that I'll see any significant savings on my dedication in being a low risk driver.

[my5cents]

There's a saying "be careful what you wish for, you may get it"

I have experience both the 100% private, 100% government and split government/private.

To me it seems reasonable that the basic $200G liability insurance, the minimum required to plate a vehicle, be sold by the government. I'm sure lots disagree.

Many who complain about ICBC have never experienced a private system and are relying on what they've heard from others.

Some, not all, don't have full knowledge of what insurance is provided in the ICBC package. To properly compare that "real cheap insurance in AB" one has to know the limits of the entire policy of insurance provided in AB and in BC. Like the maximum available if you are run down and crippled by a hit and run vehicle while a pedestrian in the US, and other types of situations.

I remember private insurance, having coverage cancelled after having an accident. Getting hit by someone backing out of a stall in a parking lot, going around to three body shops and getting estimates, providing the estimates to the other car's insurance company, being issued a check for half the lowest amount and being told "that's what you are getting, either cash the cheque or sue us".

Yes, at my age, I wouldn't have a problem getting insurance with a private system, but I remember having a heck of a problem buying insurance and keeping it when I was young.

I could say "to heck with the young inexperienced driver's, that's their problem", but that was one of the reasons ICBC was started. ICBC wasn't created because the public liked private auto insurance.

Isn't helping everyone what insurance is about ? I pay for fire insurance and don't have a fire, but the insurance pays for your house that burned down.

The younger citizens of BC are now paying premiums for their health insurance that is well over what most of them are costing the system. I am paying less than what I cost the system.

If I pay a little more for my car insurance so the younger drivers have an easier time accessing auto insurance, I think that's OK.

Now, the government forcing ICBC to run at a profit on optional coverage and creaming it off ? That is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I did what I could to solve that, but unfortunately I only had one vote.

[Dizzy1]

Bottom line for me is $$$ ... with ICBC for the basic and private for better optional coverage that I had with ICBC, I'm saving about $350 a year, I think its more or less safe to say that if we were to have comparable competition on basic, I could easily save a couple of hundred dollars (at least) more every year, taking in to account on my own personal experience with full private insurance.

As for claims, the private insurance adjusters have been friendlier, faster and more professional compared to their ICBC counterparts.

[Smurf]

Dizzy 1 how can you have the supposed excellent driving record you have and yet have so experience with adjusters in both systems? The way you talk it would seem you have had more contact than the average good driver. I haven't had need for an adjuster for at least 35 years and that includes raising 3 teenagers that drove our vehicles.

[Dizzy1]

Dizzy 1 how can you have the supposed excellent driving record you have and yet have so experience with adjusters in both systems? The way you talk it would seem you have had more contact than the average good driver. I haven't had need for an adjuster for at least 35 years and that includes raising 3 teenagers that drove our vehicles.

Windshields, B&E, no-fault collision ... you know, the things that no matter how awesome of a driver you are (or think you are) you have no control or very little control over.

[my5cents]

Windshields, B&E, no-fault collision ... you know, the things that no matter how awesome of a driver you are (or think you are) you have no control or very little control over.

I have to agree with the skepticism of Smurf, for example windshield claims, theft from vehicle claims, don't generally involve adjusters. You just go to a glass shop and they handle it.

Maybe you got bad service from a glass shop employee and not an adjuster.

In my experience ICBC is more forgiving when it comes to multiple comprehensive claims than private insurance is.

[Smurf]

Agreed. I have had windshield claims and have never seen an adjuster. Maybe that is one of the pitfalls of private insurance although I do have a vehicle registered in Arizona which I have had a windshield replaced on and have never seen an adjuster there either. B&E, no fault, etc. have never had a problem and only have one small bumper scratch on 4 older vehicles. No claims other than windshield in those 35 + years. Very careful where I park etc. and I guess very lucky.

[Dizzy1]

Fair enough, I understand the skepticism, it is the internet and theres lots of that LOL! As for the windshields, there have been a couple of times (2006/07ish) where the glass shops wouldn't take the insurance without a claim number, when I called ICBC to make the apptointment, they said it was their new policy. Obviously, it didn't last (the policy) since last year I just went to straight to the shop, no claim number required.

ICBC also had a deductible waive after so many years of driving, so if you had 13 years (I think it was 13) of safe driving and you were at fault in an accident, they waived your deductible, this has also changed and been removed, I'm not sure what the current status is.

I've had 2 no-fault claims in the last few years. ICBC was great on the first one, fair and effecient and pleasant to deal with. The second one, they started out a bit nasty trying to make it 50/50 and I simply pointed out the actual law in the situation, the adjuster left the room for 5 minutes, came back and agreed it was 100% the other parties fault.

Look, I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of private insurance, some people would prefer it, others wouldn't. Some people prefer Ford, others prefer Toyota and they'll go back and forth to convince the other why one is better than the other, when in reality, everyone has had their own experiences. For me, I've had both private and Government, I prefer private given my experience with both.

[LongHaul]

Had a cracked windshield claim shortly after 2000 if my memory is correct. Recall having to go to ICBC first before going to the glass shop. The ICBC service was quite good. The adjustor came over to the vehicle, chatted for a few minutes and went back to his office. After some paperwork I was ready for the glass shop. Was almost like a drive through for a coffee pickup.

Don't know what the procedure is now, haven't had a glass claim since then.

[driveangry]

Had a cracked windshield claim shortly after 2000 if my memory is correct. Recall having to go to ICBC first before going to the glass shop. The ICBC service was quite good. The adjustor came over to the vehicle, chatted for a few minutes and went back to his office. After some paperwork I was ready for the glass shop. Was almost like a drive through for a coffee pickup.

Don't know what the procedure is now, haven't had a glass claim since then.

There are a couple of ways to get a glass claim. One way is going to ICBC like you did, they come out to inspect, mark it and give you the paper work to go to the repair shop of your choice. The other way is to go directly to an ICBC Glass Express shop. All the paper work is done there.

[my5cents]

Fair enough, I understand the skepticism, it is the internet and theres lots of that LOL! As for the windshields, there have been a couple of times (2006/07ish) where the glass shops wouldn't take the insurance without a claim number, when I called ICBC to make the apptointment, they said it was their new policy. Obviously, it didn't last (the policy) since last year I just went to straight to the shop, no claim number required.

It might have been the glass shop you chose. If they get caught doing something wrong, ICBC will reign them in and make every customer go to a claim centre if they want to have the w/s replaced at that shop, for a given time. The customer isn't told anything. If they went to another shop they may have found that that was a "direct glass" shop for which the customer didn't have to go to ICBC.

ICBC also had a deductible waive after so many years of driving, so if you had 13 years (I think it was 13) of safe driving and you were at fault in an accident, they waived your deductible, this has also changed and been removed, I'm not sure what the current status is.

I have NEVER heard of that one (ICBC waiving deductibles for own damage to a liable vehicle)

I've had 2 no-fault claims in the last few years. ICBC was great on the first one, fair and effecient and pleasant to deal with. The second one, they started out a bit nasty trying to make it 50/50 and I simply pointed out the actual law in the situation, the adjuster left the room for 5 minutes, came back and agreed it was 100% the other parties fault.

Look, I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of private insurance, some people would prefer it, others wouldn't. Some people prefer Ford, others prefer Toyota and they'll go back and forth to convince the other why one is better than the other, when in reality, everyone has had their own experiences. For me, I've had both private and Government, I prefer private given my experience with both.

That's fair enough