The TWU Controversy

[simnut]

That's a rather presumptuous response. And indicative of a closed mind not recognizing that there a lot things that the religious establishment does, and continues to do, that have nothing to do with religious belief. Ask Jim Bakker, or...

I don't consider Jim Bakker or some others as "leaders" of the Christian Faith. Anyone that asks for money in the way they do, or sell a bottle of "anointed" water , then live like millionaires are just good salesmen. On the opposite side of the coin, I believe Billy Graham to be a great leader of Christianity.....but, as you will say.....that's my opinion.

Historically, who decided to include the old testament in the bible? Why?

Who decided to include it? I'll have to research that one. The reason it is included.....is the history of mankind, the history of the lineage of the Trinity. If you don't know, the Trinity is The Father, The Son, and Holy Ghost. This Trinity is a major part of the Old Testament, and is the Deity of Christianity.

Wasn't Christianity supposed to be all about Jesus?

No, Christianity is all about the Trinity, of which Jesus is a part of. His time on earth was so that he could die as a man for ALL mans sins. Christianity is knowing the fact that through God, our sins are forgiven.

And who decided to include Revelations in the Christian bible? Why? What has Revelations to do with Jesus?

Revelations is about the times that are to come, and how God (whom Jesus is a part of) will "stand by" his people, through all that will happen, or perhaps happening already. The entire Bible is about the Trinity!

The bible wasn't written in Latin, or English, or French, or any modern language. Who translated it? What interpretations did they inject? Words do not always directly translate and somebody made choices - consider that the Inuit have four words for snow, we have only one in English, and a translator is likely to just write "snow" where the Inuit word pukak means "crystalline snow on the ground" and the same "snow" where the Inuit word aniu means "snow used to make water" - so some of the meaning is lost.

You mean the same way scientist "decipher" other ancient readings? What interpretation did they put into it? I wasn't there, so I don't know. I'll stand by with what I believe......

I hope that gives you some insight into my position that religious establishment(s) are not religious beliefs. They are separate things, and that is why TWU must be considered separately from religious belief. And that is why freedom of belief does not apply as an argument in favor of TWU, and why their injection of discriminatory practices and positions into the teaching of law is unacceptable.

This is one area we will never agree on, and that's ok, it's one man's opinion against another. You MUST remember, being a Christian is not part time, it IS life. TWU is a Christian community, whether teaching or just hanging out, it is trying to provide a place for Christians and those that are comfortable with their "ethics" to get an education.

But you will not see that unless you choose to examine the questions that I have posed, and answer them with an open mind.

Will you look at my answers with an open mind? I'm thinking not, you're gonna stand by what you believe.......just like I. Sorry, I am not about to change what I believe, and neither are you. At least YOU do some in depth "research" into what you are trying to put across........

Edited to add:
After sleeping on it a bit, maybe you and I are looking at it from two different ways. You are looking at the business of religion, I am looking at it from being religious, you from the outside, me from the inside. I don't agree with the business of religion either, where an religious establishment is in the business of making money, Jim Bakker for instance and living like and being treated like a king. A leader, or any other Christian should be as humble as Jesus was/is. Now, if that religious establishment is raising money and DOING something with it, I'm ok with it. Feeding the hungry, helping the children, the homeless etc. In the case of TWU, it is providing a community for like minded people, which they cannot get any where else, uses much of it's money for financial aide to those that can't afford it etc. They DO have to run a university, which does cost money. They DO have to provide a campus that is both safe and comfortable. They DO have to provide educators of the highest quality possible, to fulfill their commitment of producing high level graduates. This all takes money. Their goal, to do this in a Christian community, for those that are Christians full time...not just when they are at home or church. Why do you think they continue to grow? Why does anything else continue to grow......because of demand. They are offering an option to religious minded people for a place to be educated in a Christian atmosphere. Is there really anything wrong with that?

[Oxl3y]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trinity-western-grad-attacked-for-being-christian-in-job-rejection-1.2791323

It begins, degrees from TWU quickly and deservedly becoming worthless. Having your name on a degree from there is like signing an affidavit declaring your intolerance and bigotry.

[simnut]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trinity-western-grad-attacked-for-being-christian-in-job-rejection-1.2791323

It begins, degrees from TWU quickly and deservedly becoming worthless. Having your name on a degree from there is like signing an affidavit declaring your intolerance and bigotry.

I am going to respond to this one. First of all, you don't read or comprehend very well. If you knew anything, or read properly, TWU or any other university as far as that goes, does not give out degrees for river rafting. That is what she applied for. Your dislike (to put it diplomatically) for religion is affecting your thinking. Secondly, this company is fully in it's place to give her the opinion that they disagree with what she and TWU stands for, it is NOT in their place to reject her for a job because of that. If she was not fully qualified, like the company says.....she doesn't get the job. Then the emails she received are not "illegal" or against the Charter. If she is fully qualified, and the reasons for not getting the job is because she went to TWU, then this company will pay for it because of freedom of religion and association.

The only degree's in jeopardy right now are law degrees proposed from TWU. That will change also.....when the SCC finished with it.

Oh, and you're gonna love this......Lawyer Geoffrey Trotter(her lawyer) is a Christian, excelling at his profession, an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia Faculty of Law, and worked as a judicial law clerk with the BC Supreme Court in Victoria where he worked closely with five judges. The only difference is he didn't attend TWU.

Secondly, this company doesn't have an understanding of TWU's stance either. They think TWU doesn't accept gay students...they're wrong. And one line in his email seals the fate of his case:

He explained why graduates from Trinity Western are not welcome in the Norwegian company.

Right there, he states that qualifications has nothing to do with who gets on, it has to do with religion. And, that...simply ....is discrimination.

Micheal Vonn of the B.C. Civil Liberties Association said “What you have is written documentation that more or less is tantamount to a sign on the door that says no one of religious affiliation need apply for employment here. We don’t usually see discrimination cases that are quite this stark.”

And this from an Atheist website:

Usually, when I hear stories of Christians being discriminated against, it’s complete *bleep*. They probably did something wrong, they were punished for it, and now they’re hiding behind their religion. But in this instance, it actually looks legitimate.

The company seemed to be punishing her, not for her actions or intentions, but simply for which school she attended.

I find Paquette’s views abhorrent. But to hold her responsible for the actions of her college (or ancestors) — or to suggest she would treat gay customers any differently from straight ones when she implied nothing of the sort — is at best irresponsible and at worst illegal.

[Oxl3y]

I am going to respond to this one. How odd. I thought I was on ignore.First of all, you don't read or comprehend very well. Ah personal attacks how very Christian of you If you knew anything, or read properly, TWU or any other university as far as that goes, does not give out degrees for river rafting Don't care, the mere fact she attended this school cost her a job that does not bode well for that subpar university. That is what she applied for. Your dislike (to put it diplomatically) for religion is affecting your thinking. Secondly, this company is fully in it's place to give her the opinion that they disagree with what she and TWU stands for, it is NOT in their place to reject her for a job because of that. Yet somehow it's ok that TWU could expel students if they have homosexual relations...hmm how odd If she was not fully qualified, like the company says.....she doesn't get the job. Then the emails she received are not "illegal" or against the Charter. If she is fully qualified, and the reasons for not getting the job is because she went to TWU, then this company will pay for it because of freedom of religion and association. Maybe but hopefully the damage will be done to TWU's fragile reputation and students want to avoid the risk of associating with them

The only degree's in jeopardy right now are law degrees proposed from TWU. That will change also.....when the SCC finished with it.

Oh, and you're gonna love this......Lawyer Geoffrey Trotter(her lawyer) is a Christian, excelling at his profession, an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia Faculty of Law, and worked as a judicial law clerk with the BC Supreme Court in Victoria where he worked closely with five judges. The only difference is he didn't attend TWU. Why should I care? I don't agree with the ideals of many religious communities but I could care less if they keep them to themselves. He went to a proper school he can think whatever he wants. It's not Christianity under attack its TWU a so called center for higher learning that still has stone age prejudices

Secondly, this company doesn't have an understanding of TWU's stance either. They think TWU doesn't accept gay students...they're wrong. And one line in his email seals the fate of his case: Give me a break. How freaking noble of them to take their tuition but tell them they are sinful and immoral then threaten them with expulsion if they have relations.

"He explained why graduates from Trinity Western are not welcome in the Norwegian company."

Right there, he states that qualifications has nothing to do with who gets on, it has to do with religion. And, that...simply ....is discrimination. Only if you consider someone hating the KKK or neo-Nazis discrimination

Micheal Vonn of the B.C. Civil Liberties Association said “What you have is written documentation that more or less is tantamount to a sign on the door that says no one of religious affiliation need apply for employment here. We don’t usually see discrimination cases that are quite this stark.”Again its TWU under fire not religion but I don't expect you to understand that

[simnut]

I am going to respond to this one. How odd. I thought I was on ignore.First of all, you don't read or comprehend very well. Ah personal attacks how very Christian of you If you knew anything, or read properly, TWU or any other university as far as that goes, does not give out degrees for river rafting Don't care, the mere fact she attended this school cost her a job that does not bode well for that subpar university. That is what she applied for. Your dislike (to put it diplomatically) for religion is affecting your thinking. Secondly, this company is fully in it's place to give her the opinion that they disagree with what she and TWU stands for, it is NOT in their place to reject her for a job because of that. Yet somehow it's ok that TWU could expel students if they have homosexual relations...hmm how odd If she was not fully qualified, like the company says.....she doesn't get the job. Then the emails she received are not "illegal" or against the Charter. If she is fully qualified, and the reasons for not getting the job is because she went to TWU, then this company will pay for it because of freedom of religion and association. Maybe but hopefully the damage will be done to TWU's fragile reputation and students want to avoid the risk of associating with them

The only degree's in jeopardy right now are law degrees proposed from TWU. That will change also.....when the SCC finished with it.

Oh, and you're gonna love this......Lawyer Geoffrey Trotter(her lawyer) is a Christian, excelling at his profession, an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia Faculty of Law, and worked as a judicial law clerk with the BC Supreme Court in Victoria where he worked closely with five judges. The only difference is he didn't attend TWU. Why should I care? I don't agree with the ideals of many religious communities but I could care less if they keep them to themselves. He went to a proper school he can think whatever he wants. It's not Christianity under attack its TWU a so called center for higher learning that still has stone age prejudices

Secondly, this company doesn't have an understanding of TWU's stance either. They think TWU doesn't accept gay students...they're wrong. And one line in his email seals the fate of his case: Give me a break. How freaking noble of them to take their tuition but tell them they are sinful and immoral then threaten them with expulsion if they have relations.

"He explained why graduates from Trinity Western are not welcome in the Norwegian company."

Right there, he states that qualifications has nothing to do with who gets on, it has to do with religion. And, that...simply ....is discrimination. Only if you consider someone hating the KKK or neo-Nazis discrimination

Micheal Vonn of the B.C. Civil Liberties Association said “What you have is written documentation that more or less is tantamount to a sign on the door that says no one of religious affiliation need apply for employment here. We don’t usually see discrimination cases that are quite this stark.”Again its TWU under fire not religion but I don't expect you to understand that

All your answers in this quote, show exactly the way you think(or lack of, not a put down, just an observation)....or think about this. Thank you ;)

[Oxl3y]

All your answers in this quote, show exactly the way you think(or lack of, not a put down, just an observation)....or think about this. Thank you ;)

And I fully stand by my thoughts on this topic. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'll see you in hell (if you are inclined to believe in that sort of thing)

[simnut]

And I fully stand by my thoughts on this topic. If that makes me a bad person then I guess I'll see you in hell (if you are inclined to believe in that sort of thing)

You are not necessarily going to hell, and hopefully, you won't see me there. Did I say you were a bad person? No. Do I agree with what you say? No. , I'm just asking to think some, which you don't have to do....your right. You see, I don't mind you having your opinion, I do mind that you won't let others have one too. Fair enough?

[Oxl3y]

You are not necessarily going to hell, and hopefully, you won't see me there. Did I say you were a bad person? No. Do I agree with what you say? No. , I'm just asking to think some, which you don't have to do....your right. You see, I don't mind you having your opinion, I do mind that you won't let others have one too. Fair enough?

How exactly are you letting us have our opinion? Your usual response is to insinuate that we are stupid. Do I debate your opinion? No but you haven't proven to be someone worth debating with. You want a school to keep the right to put others down, I say keep that crap behind the closed doors of the church.

[simnut]

How exactly are you letting us have our opinion? Your usual response is to insinuate that we are stupid.

No, I insinuate YOU (not y'all) to be more informed. Everyone else at least tries to explain their side. And, I will respond with MY opinion, without dislike or disgust. That's because you are allowed to have your opinion, and so am I.

Do I debate your opinion? No but you haven't proven to be someone worth debating with.

See, that's exactly what I'm saying. Debate it, (instead of stomping on it), like most on this forum. If I haven't proven to be a worthwhile foe, then so be it. I will continue to use factual , legal statements where ever I can.

You want a school to keep the right to put others down, I say keep that crap behind the closed doors of the church.

Or a private university.

Ok, you're going to hell, you said crap. ;)

[maryjane48]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/trinity-western-grad-attacked-for-being-christian-in-job-rejection-1.2791323

It begins, degrees from TWU quickly and deservedly becoming worthless. Having your name on a degree from there is like signing an affidavit declaring your intolerance and bigotry.

yes sadly it is true, i do not believe every student that goes there actually believes in the covenant, but they must understand what it says to rest of canada

[Rosieodonell]

Wow, i am just reading about this company up north and to discriminate because someone is Christian is terrible. If he wants to not hire graduates from a school because the school discriminates thats his choice. (Even though 2 wrongs don't make a right.) But to say he will never hire a Christian because Christians in the past afected his people is the kind of thing we need to eliminate in this world. Same as my religion says homosexual intercourse is wrong or my religion says I can marry multiple wives.

I think the covenant is wrong but for a biologist or a teacher, shouldn't affect issues for their accredidation. I am sure TWU is teaching everything that UBC teaches for a law school but the extra added bonus that being gay is wrong. (Covenant a legal binding contract that outlines that homosexuality is wrong) Which Canada has legally said gay marriage is fine and why all the law schools think the university shouldn't be accredited.

Being gay = not a choice (not a lifestyle but can be part of their identity)
Being a christian = a choice (a lifestyle and an identity)
Babies are born hetereosexual or homosexual

A baby is born without a religon (even though some people will argue otherwise. ) a child is taught or chooses a religion.. usually the one that is similar to their parents since they are exposed to it.

[JLives]

Maybe they don't want their homosexual customers to be assisted by people who support bigotry of them. I wouldn't hire a grad from TWU either. It's wearing support for discrimination on your sleeve.

[goatboy]

Maybe they don't want their homosexual customers to be assisted by people who support bigotry of them. I wouldn't hire a grad from TWU either. It's wearing support for discrimination on your sleeve.

So they should not have any Catholics working there?

Don't you find your last sentence as well as their actions and comments completely hypocritical?

[Ub2]

I wouldn't hire a grad from TWU either.

With a statement like this actually makes you a discriminatory bigot! . . . the very thing you accuse others of.

[JLives]

So they should not have any Catholics working there?

Don't you find your last sentence as well as their actions and comments completely hypocritical?

There are plenty of Catholics and people from other religions that do not support discrimination and reconcile that with their religious beliefs including priests and the Pope. Being discriminatory against LBGT people isn't because of their religious beliefs. They use the cloak of religious beliefs to justify their discrimination. You can be both religious and non-discriminatory and I would have no problem hiring a person like that (assuming they are otherwise qualified of course).