Crown corporations

[Smurf]

Do you believe our governments should be constantly siphoning money out of crown corporations to use to help cover their own spending?

I believe they should pay taxes just like any other business and the rest should be kept by the corporation for expenses, maintenance, improvements, whatever and TO KEEP OUR COSTS DOWN as we are the shareholders. In other words all profits should be used for our benefit not to cover government spending.

[Hassel99]

How do you feel about subsidies paid to these crown corporations by the BC Government?

BC gives the BC Ferries $151mm a year should they not be allowed to get any of that back should BC Ferries be in the black?

[Smurf]

I feel they should be able to recover it as long as the money isn't needed to properly run the corporation. For instance It should be paid back before any rates are dropped. However isn't BC Ferries a poor example as it is not actually a crown corporation anymore is it. It should be considered some type of loan and paid back if possible.

[Captain Awesome]

In other words all profits should be used for our benefit not to cover government spending.

Meh. It's not like they take the profits out for their own pleasure. These profits pay for our own expenses.

They can stop it and raise taxes instead - either way the money is being spent.

[flamingfingers]

Smurf: Good thread, but I think you should change the title to "CLOWN CORPORATIONS"....

In support of this title, perhaps have a look at how some of these are run: BC Hydro provides a resting place for out-of-favor Liberal supporters; BC Ferries pretends to be a 'private corporation' yet is supported to a vast extent with taxpayer dollars, a lot of which ends up in management pockets in the form of 'bonuses' and golden handshakes. Shall we also mention ICBC? There are just too many examples of Clown Corporations taking advantage of taxpayer dollars and this needs to be cleaned up. Unfortunately, we have an incestuous nest of politicians and corporations who will kick, scream and have purple velvet tantrums if any attempt is made to remove some of the down from their nicely feathered nests!

[matai]

Do you believe our governments should be constantly siphoning money out of crown corporations to use to help cover their own spending?

Of course they should. Better when it comes from our pockets than theirs.

One not need to go far to see BC have the worse managed crown corps in the whole country. Not just crown corps, every government level as well.

Anyways.

How come PEI have 2nd lowest car insurance rates in the country when the population of their whole province is equal to the one of Kelowna alone? IS it not an eye opener that Kelowna could have its own car insurance corp, offer low rates and still make money?

[flamingfingers]

Of course they should. Better when it comes from our pockets than theirs.

What are you talking about????

"Their pockets" - you make no sense at all here.

[Smurf]

I don't know that much about it, but insurance companies base their rates on accident statistics. That often seems to be based a bit on population. I have noticed in the past that rural, less populated areas have accident rates and lower insurance rates. That could be why PEI has lower rates.

In my mind, others might or might not agree, we have some of the worst drivers I see. I do a lot of driving in a lot of conditions on my travels and the Okanagan and even BC have some of the worst drivers I run into anywhere.

Yes FF I agree all the crown corporations need a clean up. But I also believe they would be a lot easier to clean up and would run a lot better of they were allowed to keep their own money and use it to properly run their business and keep our rates low. If this happened with Hydro and ICBC alone we would be able to afford much more for taxes to support general revenue. We would be able to look at the whole picture and tell where the problems are. Instead Hydro has to raise rates to cover maintenance that they would have been able to do if the government hadn't stole money. We don't even want to talk about run of the river projects which were forced on Hydro.

Had the government not lowered our income Tax and increased every premium and fee they could think of we would probably be better off. We would have just as much and possibly more money in our pockets. At least we would know exactly where it was going and who was spending it.

[Rwede]

Now, if we were to do the right thing and privatize the whole lot of them, then we could benefit from non-government efficiencies and you would sleep better at night not worrying about management bonuses, because it would be none of your business.

Introduce competition, get rid of the monopoly. We win.

[NAB]

Not everyone drives a vehicle, so those who do not don't need ICBC. It could be argued that excess money from those who do use it subsidizes services for those who don't. Similar could be said about other Crown Corporations or the like and their various charges, licenses, tolls, and fees (Hydro, BC Liquor, Highways and Bridges, MSP and health care, Education fees and tuitions, Fuel Taxes, etc). None of it is really "user pay", at least in the pure sense of that term.

But then very little about "Government" and their various Crown operations is, and I think most would agree that there are certain basic things government should be responsible for, and that all citizens and corporations should be funding in a fairly distributed way. Then there are other things that Government should keep their nose totally out of but don't.

However, when those two lists (and the funding supporting them) expand to the point they become integrated and blurred, we need to look at the "why" of it. One reason of course is it contributes strongly to Government's ability to manipulate and hide the truth and reality as to where the money they control comes from and how it is spent. Particularly helpful when trying to create and maintain the ILLUSION of being a "low personal income tax and corporate income tax" jurisdiction. A prime example of that manipulation is public debt at all levels, ....and how easily we get suckered into focusing on "balanced budgets" while being diverted from paying much attention to the ever mounting debt itself.

Nab

[Smurf]

Rwede you need to get out of your comfort zone a bit more and see the real world. Lets take hydro. I have seen many areas with private hydro and competition. You and I would not want to have to pay those rates. In many cases the maintenance is much worse than ours. When profits become the main aspect things suffer. I have yet to see a private system as cheap as our although they might be out there. I would much sooner see the government keep ,control but at a distance. let the corporations keep their money so they can actually be run like a business instead of a money pit for the government.


EDIT TO ADD:

RW I'll guarantee you one thing. If BC Hydro was a private entity there would be none of the run of the river contracts or at least not the way the government forced them on Hydro. If there was any it would be at the expense of huge rate increases.

[Smurf]

Totally agree Nab. Drivers are subsidizing everyone else. I believe if it was all kept separate and we paid proper taxes people would have a big change in the way they think. Right now they think the government isn't doing bad, Hydro is bad for having to raise rates, ICBC is bad for having high rates and on and on. If it was all kept separate then they would know where to lay the blame. They would probably see a drop in rates or at least not projected increases because those corporations could support themselves. Make the corporations pay tax the same as any other business. If this was done people would
see/feel the actual cost of education, health etc. instead of it being hidden in a mishmash of funds that most are not ready to take the time to decipher. People might not be so ready to ask for things if they could actually see where the money was coming from and feel it in their taxes.

The problem is not in having crown corporations. It is in the way "governments" are using them. BC is a perfect example in the way they siphon out money. If crown corporations were allowed to operate properly they would not have near the problems.

[Rwede]

Rwede you need to get out of your comfort zone a bit more and see the real world. Lets take hydro. I have seen many areas with private hydro and competition. You and I would not want to have to pay those rates. In many cases the maintenance is much worse than ours. When profits become the main aspect things suffer. I have yet to see a private system as cheap as our although they might be out there. I would much sooner see the government keep ,control but at a distance. let the corporations keep their money so they can actually be run like a business instead of a money pit for the government.


EDIT TO ADD:

RW I'll guarantee you one thing. If BC Hydro was a private entity there would be none of the run of the river contracts or at least not the way the government forced them on Hydro. If there was any it would be at the expense of huge rate increases.

So you're in favour of income taxes subsidizing BC Hydro rates?

How on earth does Fortis survive compared to BC Hydro? Fortis does really well, Hydro is always embroiled in some stupid scandal, and rate increases are little different between the two.

Your example points out the exact opposite of what you're saying.

[Smurf]

Rwede wrote:

So you're in favour of income taxes subsidizing BC Hydro rates?

How on earth does Fortis survive compared to BC Hydro? Fortis does really well, Hydro is always embroiled in some stupid scandal, and rate increases are little different between the two.

Your example points out the exact opposite of what you're saying.

*removed* Where did I say anything about anyone subsidizing hydro or for that matter even elude to it. I said Hydro would easily be able to pay it's own way if government wasn't stealing money and forcing them to pay ridiculous rates for power they don't even need. As far as I know right now even with all those things Hydro gets no subsidy and certainly wouldn't if they had all the extra money they should have.

Any dummy can see why Fortis can survive. They don't have the government stealing money from them and forcing them to sign ridiculous contracts that cost them a fortune and will for decades to come. Thank you for proving how well Hydro does to pay all those extra expenses and still be able to pat their own way. They are also managing to pay excellent living salaries to their employees. Actually they are doing very well under the circumstances aren't they.

[Popeye69]

Now, if we were to do the right thing and privatize the whole lot of them, then we could benefit from non-government efficiencies and you would sleep better at night not worrying about management bonuses, because it would be none of your business.

Introduce competition, get rid of the monopoly. We win.

Ya because that works... Look at Shaw, Telus, Bell and Rogers. Four fat cat private companies who got us right where they want us. We pay some of the highest wireless costs not to mention most expensive T.V in the world. Wheres the competition?? There hardly is any because they each got a piece of the pie that makes them billions...why rock the boat.
The answer is more complex than simply handing the keys to the kingdom to private interests...