Use-of-force debate misses the real issue

[KL3-Something]

I'm going to go out on a limb here Mike and suggest he or she was referring to the post near the top of this page.

(Make that page 2)

[MAPearce]

Could be GF mistook my comment of " I'll save the rest " to mean that I would save the "rest of the people" instead of me saving my sarcasm......

I could be wrong though ..

[KL3-Something]

Was referring to your reply to Daspoot

[MAPearce]

We'll just have to wait for GF to clarify ..

[Daspoot]

KL3-Something,

I love it when someone stomps a silly argument into the ground, well done!

Are you saying that because the APD didn't kill the guy is SILLY ????

wow... just wow ...

I can't for the life of me figure out either what you mean with this post, or how my post to KL3 could have been interpreted as anything but me agreeing with him.

[Smurf]

As usual in a lot of the topics in here there is a shortage of information. I would have to agree that in general police have to look at the worst possible scenario and try to work back to the best possible solution. In this case I would say they did a good job from the information we have to work with. Just like entering a house. If I was an office I would always enter it like there were weapons on site whether there were any registered or not. The most important thing is you go home at the end of the day. I remember being trained as and training other firefighters (be it only volunteer) you couldn't rescue anyone, help anyone or fight the fire if you became a victim yourself.

Job well done. Everyone including the suspect went home safe and sound.

[MAPearce]

Job well done. Everyone including the suspect went home safe and sound.

I think that's all that matters ....

It can work this way MOST of the time IMO.

[BelieveNothing]

I thought the guy was homeless? So, i guess he didnt go home safe and sound as you claim. Maybe you know something i dont.

The police system is in general uneducated and continues to make excuses to be so.

It is nice for a change to see that they didnt murder him.... how they did proceed still seems inhumane, there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

As it is most of you on this thread seem to only operate from fear and have no concept of compassion.

It makes me sick to realize how many hold the belief that homeless people are dangerous or less deserving than Yourselves.

[Daspoot]

So i guess you'll be out there proving us heartless buzzards wrong. I look forward to your report on how it goes. I suggest you start at the epicenter of homelessness for the best effect of your efforts, Downtown Van Army and Navy building should do the trick (so to speak...).

I think you need to respond to 10-20 calls a shift for a few weeks and get back to us. Until then you're just driving your chair and telling the real workers how it should be done, because you know so much more and have so much more experience. It's just plain obvious to you isn't it.

[BelieveNothing]

Good guess!

It is just plain obvious to me, yes.

[Gilchy]

I thought the guy was homeless? So, i guess he didnt go home safe and sound as you claim. Maybe you know something i dont.

The police system is in general uneducated and continues to make excuses to be so.

It is nice for a change to see that they didnt murder him.... how they did proceed still seems inhumane, there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

As it is most of you on this thread seem to only operate from fear and have no concept of compassion.

It makes me sick to realize how many hold the belief that homeless people are dangerous or less deserving than Yourselves.

Being homeless doesn't make a person dangerous. However, waving a large knife around does. That's the situation the police were responding to.

[Ranger66]

“They had those grounds based on the call. That's all they need to make the arrest.”

Today I called the police and told them I saw a homeless type guy near city hall with a knife, I’ll be watching for all the take downs and arrests since a call is reasonable grounds to arrest anyone.

“This provision requires the arresting officer to subjectively have reasonable grounds upon which to base the arrest. Those grounds must also be justifiable from an objective point of view – a reasonable person placed in the position of the officer must be able to conclude that there were indeed reasonable grounds for the arrest.”

Seeing someone with a similar description is not a subjective reason and probably accelerated a situation that could have easily gotten out of control. He had every right to stop and question, but to go straight to arrest shows a bias against the homeless (and by extension the mentally ill) that creates a downward spiral of suspicion and violence.

[A_Britishcolumbian]

so as i pointed out earlier, with the 'guide', that is supposed to be the 'national' madel, and as kl3-something points out, it is generally the 'rule' to assume the accused guilty until proven innocent, but as we can see from this recent story these standards are not adhered to across the different forces. in surrey apparently threatening someone with a knife isn't even worth investigating.

Surrey man slams RCMP for response to knife threat

Tom Zytaruk / Surrey Now
April 30, 2014 10:49 AM

SURREY — A Cloverdale family that was terrorized by a trio of teenaged thugs is flummoxed by what the father characterized as an appalling lack of police response to their crisis.

Bill, who asked that his last name not be published for fear of reprisal, said the Surrey RCMP has yet to take statements from him concerning a frightening incident that unfolded behind Cloverdale Traditional School on Friday, April 18, where a teenaged boy held a knife to his brother-in-law's throat.

Bill said he and his wife, joined by the in-laws, were playing with their children aged five and six behind the school when they saw the thugs harrying an elderly man, who'd asked them to stop cursing, across the field.

"They were about to assault an older man and me and my brother-in-law stepped in to help him," Bill, 43, said. The three thugs, he said, were "maybe 15 years old."

It was about 7:30 p.m.

Bill said one of the boys pulled out a six-inch-long buck knife and held it to his 28-year-old brother-in-law's throat.

"It was so scary," he said. "These kids weren't afraid of anything.

Bill said the boy held his knife to his brother-in-law's throat for about 20 seconds, "telling him they were going to kill him.

"This was insane how long this boy held this knife to his throat."

This grim standoff drew on while Bill was on 911, telling the thugs the police were on their way.

Finally the three relented and left, yelling "C-N-G," presumably some kind of gangster slogan.

"They kept yelling 'We're going to kill you,'" Bill said.

He said he saw a patrol car and tried waving it down, but it went in the opposite direction. "I ran around the entire school trying to flag them down."

He said the delinquents were tall, white, and one of them wore bright red track pants and a black hoodie. "It would have been so easy to pick this boy out."

Two rode BMX bikes while the boy with the knife had a scooter.

Bill said his family went home, fearing the teens might come back. He said he brought the children into the house then called the Surrey RCMP's non-emergency line. Fifty minutes later, he said, a police car came racing up to their place and an officer asked if everyone's OK as he'd heard there was a fight at their place, and was anyone hurt.

Bill said he told the officer the incident happened about an hour earlier, at the school, and that nobody was hurt. He said the cop replied, "OK, I'm out of here. Cool Beans."

"That was the last I saw of them."

Since then, Bill said, he's gone "blue in the face" calling police "over and over," trying to get them to take a witness statement. "It's been almost two weeks now.

"I hope these kids don't kill someone's child," he said.

The Surrey RCMP has provided the Now with a written response on the matter:

"Our officers did patrol the area immediately following the call received, however, were unable to locate the suspects at that time. We did speak to the complainant a second time that evening as well, as we were told he wanted an update on the case," the statement reads. "We have forwarded the concerns of the complainant to our Operations Officer, for his review and direction. We take this matter and the security of our community extremely seriously, and we will be contacting our complainant to follow up on his concerns."

Surrey has Canada's largest RCMP detachment and the Surrey RCMP receives more than 286,000 non-emergency and 911 calls every year.

Bill noted the Surrey RCMP has been marketing an on-line crime reporting service on its website, for less serious crimes. The idea behind this is to free up more time for officers to respond to more serious calls, like threats of violence. He wonders why police aren't putting more effort into his case.

Meanwhile, he said, his brother-in-law has reached his own conclusions, telling him, after the dust settled, "This is exactly why I don't help people."

- See more at: http://www.thenownewspaper.com/surrey-m ... qRpoK.dpuf

[Daspoot]

All you post shows is that you come to the table with a beef with the RCMP and or Police in general. Other than that it has nothing to do with this thread.

[steven lloyd]

Indeed, after three pages this discussion has yet to fall on the real issue (except for grammy alluding to the “revolving door” of the justice system). Not as popular as bashing cops I suppose.

Police forced into social work
• by Editorial - Campbell River Mirror
• posted May 1, 2014 at 1:00 PM

There’s a reason why we call them first responders.

Police, firefighters and paramedics are the first people called when we need help. It used to be for fires, car accidents or falling from a tree.

But soon police, firefighters and paramedics are going to have to add ‘social worker’ to their job descriptions.

When they’re walking or biking the beat, police are often the ones contacting social service providers for people in need, checking on vulnerable people to ensure they’re safe, and diffusing dangerous situations.

It’s a specialized skill set that used to fall to case workers. As the provincial government closes facilities for people with mental illness, reduces services and resources, case loads for social workers increase and people simply fall through the cracks.

Where the police used to be the last call, now they’re often the first.

Care for people with mental illness, brain injury or developmental disabilities is complex.

With fewer doctors available to take new patients, those high-maintenance clients are left calling crisis lines and walk-in clinics for stop-gap measures instead of a solution.

Add in poverty, poor nutrition, barriers to housing and it doesn’t take long for someone barely getting by to suddenly end up in crisis.

It takes a community to raise a child, but it also takes a community to ensure that our most vulnerable people are safe and cared for.

That means access to food and nutrition, health care, adequate social services and affordable housing – not a jail cell.

– Black Press

http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/257555491.html