Tsilhqot'in First Nation granted BC title claim by SCoC

[zzontar]

You mean, if we didn't force them onto reserves, split their families apart putting children into residential schools where they would not be allowed to speak their language, be physically and sexually abused (something which continued as late as the late 1980s), not made their language or culture illegal so the children when grown would not fit in at home or in the cities, and intergenerational cycles of abuse and dependence born from the actions of our occupation ? What do you think ?

Well, that's not happening now and I've known many natives, none who ever had to endure any of that. Do you think the ones that didn't suffer all that abuse want equality with the rest of Canadians? What do you think?

[steven lloyd]

Well, that's not happening now and I've known many natives, none who ever had to endure any of that. Do you think the ones that didn't suffer all that abuse want equality with the rest of Canadians? What do you think?

I think you asked the question: "Does anyone think the natives would be happier if no one "stole" their land, but instead the people here just immigrated". I think you really need to do some genuine research and reading on this subject - not only on past atrocities that did not stop until just twenty or so years ago, but on just what is trying to be accomplished right now in many First Nations wanting to join Canadian society as equals with the same rights as we have to inherit property and land and have a say in how it is used or exploited. I think you need to shed the stereotypes and assumptions of understanding (just because you know some natives who “never had to endure any of that” and are not still disenfranchised now). I think you need to know the issues haven’t just evaporated because the last residential school closed only twenty years ago.

Wishing you willingness and courage in your learning - should you choose that path. Cheers.


some facts:

The belief that First Nations don't pay taxes is misleading.

Reserves are Crown lands set aside (reserved) for First Nations. That is the reason they are called "reserves". No one is required to pay property tax on Crown (government) lands, therefor First Nations don't pay property tax.

GST is not paid if the goods are delivered to the reserve, resulting in “government property”. All government holdings are tax exempt, such as government organizations or military bases and reserves.

PST is used to provide services to the residents of the Province. Since First Nations pay for their own on-reserve services (with their own money) they are not required to pay PST on or off the reserve as long as they can prove they are reserve residents.

Any services to First Nation that are derived off-reserve are paid through “Service Agreements”, which are more beneficial to the service provider than taxes would have been.

All income derived off the reserve is taxed, (Taxation is the same as for military personal). whether a person resides on the reserve or not, so yes many First Nations people pay Income Tax.

First Nation signed treaties with Canada. The treaties define the PAYMENT for acquiring lands by Canada.

MONETARY SETTLEMENTS were made, and that money is “Held In Trust” by Canada. Canada holds First Nations LANDS “In Trust” and collects royalties from RESOURCES on First Nations lands which Canada also holds “In Trust”.

In addition some First Nations have "Band Moneys" (from royalties derived from reserve lands) and some First Nations have "Taxation" dollars that Canada "Holds in Trust".

Canada dictates the expenditures of that money on a per-capita and formula basis and provides the First Nations with the guidelines and the audit procedures on how they can spend their own money.

In some cases, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) has specific responsibilities for managing moneys that belong to First Nations bands. These moneys are generated through band-owned resources such as oil and gas.
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/br/bm/index-e...

First Nations pay for ALL their own programs and services from the money “Held In Trust” by Canada. TAXES pay for Canadian programs and services. First Nations don't pay those taxes that provide programs and services to other Canadians.

If a First Nations member lives or works off the First Nation they are taxed in the same manner as every other Canadian resident. None of those taxes benefit the First Nations communities even if the worker lives on a First Nation.

Since First Nations don't pay for Non-Native programs and services, if First Nations use any "Public Service" that service must be contracted as a PURCHASE OF SERVICE.

First Nations pay for all their programs and services out of their allocated budgets and at a higher cost than other Canadians. (most programs are subsidized and First Nations do not qualify for those subsidies) Yet First Nations are funded at a far lower level than other Canadians for those same services.

BTW

The indigenous people were slaves in Canada as they were in the United States, the Caribbean and in South America. The indigenous people were slaves from the 1400s. . 200 years before Black people ever set foot in the Americas.

In Canada the First Nations were slaves until the 1980s through Residential Schools, where the children were out-sourced as slave labour, to generate revenue for the Residential Schools.


Further research:

http://this.org/magazine/2011/06/15/fir ... exemption/

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/12/poking-ho ... -mythology

http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.c ... ystem.html

http://www.bing.com/search?q=impact%20o ... =CT3210127

http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=3


Don't stop here. This is just to get you started.

[zzontar]

I don't doubt they were mistreated, as were many people's ancestors, I just don't find that if two people have had abusive histories that one should receive compensation over the other because of race. As far as being stereotypical, rolling all natives into one ball and saying they were abused is just that. Here's another example:

In Canada the First Nations were slaves until the 1980s through Residential Schools, where the children were out-sourced as slave labour, to generate revenue for the Residential Schools.

I went to school with some before that... they weren't slave labor, they were people in my neighborhood, so a statement like that is false and stereotypical... it goes both ways.

[steven lloyd]

In Canada the First Nations were slaves until the 1980s through Residential Schools, where the children were out-sourced as slave labour, to generate revenue for the Residential Schools.

I went to school with some before that... they weren't slave labor, they were people in my neighborhood, so a statement like that is false and stereotypical... it goes both ways.

Wow! I have overestimated you zzontar. So because you went to school ( a non-residential school I presume ) with some native kids that weren't being used as slave labour ( because they weren't in a residential school ), actual documented and recorded history of it happening elsewhere in this province and country at the same time is inaccurate? Unbelievable! You know what? Don’t bother wasting your time doing any further research or reading on this issue. It would be entirely pointless.

[the truth]

over the years I have been told about some natives claiming they were abused in these schools,but never were.
they were just looking for a free paycheck,and guess what they got one.
end of story,
thank you very much

[steven lloyd]

over the years I have been told about some natives claiming they were abused in these schools,but never were.

Oh, that must be the truth then. You're right. No further thinking required on your part. You can relax.

[zzontar]

Wow! I have overestimated you zzontar. So because you went to school ( a non-residential school I presume ) with some native kids that weren't being used as slave labour ( because they weren't in a residential school ), actual documented and recorded history of it happening elsewhere in this province and country at the same time is inaccurate? Unbelievable! You know what? Don’t bother wasting your time doing any further research or reading on this issue. It would be entirely pointless.

Did I say no kids were being used as slave labor? My point (which obviously went over your head) is that saying natives were used as slaves until the 80's is like saying blacks jump higher. If you can't figure it out maybe it's time to do some research of your own.

[zzontar]

In some cases, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) has specific responsibilities for managing moneys that belong to First Nations bands. These moneys are generated through band-owned resources such as oil and gas.
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/br/bm/index-e...

I gather that you also believe INAC is a racist organization?

[steven lloyd]

Did I say no kids were being used as slave labor? My point (which obviously went over your head) is that saying natives were used as slaves until the 80's is like saying blacks jump higher. If you can't figure it out maybe it's time to do some research of your own.

You said, and I quote: “I went to school with some before that... they weren't slave labor, they were people in my neighborhood, so a statement like that is false and stereotypical...”. You are clearly more interested in finding ways to defend your erroneous and prejudicial views through deflection tactics and red herring arguments than you are in doing a little reading to gain a better understanding of the issue (never mind the idea you might critically challenging your thinking). You focused in on one fact (yes – it is a fact) out of over a dozen provided, and instead of looking into this complex issue to learn a little more about it on your own accord, you have failed to even bother following a single link that was provided for you. There is little point in this discussing this issue with you any further if you continue to choose to remain completely ignorant of it.

[zzontar]

Well Steven, if someone said natives are lazy then by your reasoning it's as true as saying they were slaves until the 80's. Somehow you believe that a statement about natives can only be stereotypical if it's against them. I also believe that one person's suffering cannot be deemed worse than another's because of their race, and that all Canadians should be equal. If I was going to Saskatchewan and was told I had to get Albertan's permission to cut through their province first, I would be equally angry (which doesn't mean I'm racist against Albertans.) I don't believe only one race should be entitled to land and unlimited hunting and fishing as everyone in the world had ancestors who had land and hunted and fished for a living. As long as you think otherwise, yes the discussion is pointless.

[steven lloyd]

Well Steven, if someone said natives are lazy then by your reasoning it's as true as saying they were slaves until the 80's.

Incorrect and a deflection.

Somehow you believe that a statement about natives can only be stereotypical if it's against them.

Incorrect and a deflection.

I also believe that one person's suffering cannot be deemed worse than another's because of their race, and that all Canadians should be equal.

Very nice. So do the vast majority of First Nations people. Something you might come to understand if you ever decide to give up on the deflections, drop the defensiveness and put even a little bit of effort into finding out something about the issues. Even a little bit a knowledge could and would help your perspective I think.

If I was going to Saskatchewan and was told I had to get Albertan's permission to cut through their province first, I would be equally angry (which doesn't mean I'm racist against Albertans.

Do I even have to say it?

I don't believe only one race should be entitled to land and unlimited hunting and fishing as everyone in the world had ancestors who had land and hunted and fished for a living. As long as you think otherwise, yes the discussion is pointless.

It is clear you do not know what I think. In spite of my efforts, your rigid defensiveness has prevented you from registering any information that contradicts your erroneous views or stereotypes in any way. That is unfortunate. I challenged you to do some reading on this issue and even went to the bother of finding you some links to get you started so you wouldn’t even have to look on your own. If you are so intellectually lazy that you cannot even do that then I have to conclude you are only interested in defending your position and have no interest in examining it. Again, that is unfortunate. In my work I have to keep up with the learning. It is a requirement of my job. But even without that demand I hope to never see myself choosing to remain so ignorant of an issue just because of intellectual laziness or rigidity. That’s too bad for you zzontar. Good day.

[zzontar]

Steven, your biased attitude is shining through and just saying "incorrect" doesn't make it so and is a weak an argument as can be. I also note you take offense to the term "Indian" and deem people as racist who use it, yet never say a peep about people who use the term "whitey." Ask yourself if that's more pro-native or anti-racist. Also, I've read a lot about native history no matter how much you assume... sure they were wronged, I just don't believe two wrongs make a right.

[maryjane48]

So useing your example Zzontar , Why should A company like endbridge get to make a profit ? Shouldnt they just make enough to break even ? NAtives paid For the europeans being here with thier lives and culture being almost destroyed , and Now Your suggesting they shouldnt have the chance to control there own destiny ? The day you put a sign in front of your house saying any welcome to come in and do what they want on and in my property is the day i will agree with your point of view

[maryjane48]

The only people who want to keep Indians in poverty are the Indian chiefs.

It's big money and big security for the chiefs. Damned near like a union (see: Iker, Jim).

http://www.calvinhelin.com/books/dances-with-dependency

Thats very true but has zero to do with walking on to their land and doing what we want . It is Up to them to boot out the bad band counslers and they should get rid of them But as steven has pointed out they do not get free money they paid with their blood and haveing their culture almost destroyed

[zzontar]

So useing your example Zzontar , Why should A company like endbridge get to make a profit ? Shouldnt they just make enough to break even ? NAtives paid For the europeans being here with thier lives and culture being almost destroyed , and Now Your suggesting they shouldnt have the chance to control there own destiny ? The day you put a sign in front of your house saying any welcome to come in and do what they want on and in my property is the day i will agree with your point of view

Enbridge pays part of their profit to the government, part of which in turn gets passed down to natives through various programs and subsidies. Canadian Natives also have more control already over stopping a pipeline than Canadians who are not native so I don't see where you're going with that.