Northern chiefs opposition to oil transport

[maryjane48]

lol,lol you should talk,and you are correct there is no other way to get around,wecome to the year 2015 chiefs we need oil

what we need is to get the most out of our resources, and clearly harper and enbridge , do not see it that way, they just want the quick buck , i think the chiefs have the better idea

[the truth]

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[maryjane48]

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[ferri]

get back on topic!

[the truth]

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[Smurf]

Lakevixen wrote:

what we need is to get the most out of our resources, and clearly harper and enbridge , do not see it that way, they just want the quick buck , i think the chiefs have the better idea

Please elaborate on the details of the better idea and explain why it is better.

[maryjane48]

because a refinery is involved . if was up to me one would be built in alberta

[Catri]

What is being proposed is an idea that would not only give all British Columbians (the vast majority of whom are opposed to Enbridge's reckless proposal) more say in protecting our environment, but also provide more economic benefit to all of us.

I did a bit more reading about the Eagle Spirit proposal but don't understand how will it give British Columbians more say? It will give the Aquilinis more say because apparently they're the money behind it, but all BC'ers? How?

Eagle Spirit's proposal calls for an upgrading facility to create synthetic crude out of the bitumen, but they aren't committed to placing that facility in BC. It makes more sense to put it at the beginning of the pipeline, not the middle, which would place it in Alberta. It also begs the question of whether the markets for synthetic crude are as ripe as they are for the bitumen that would be moved in the Enbridge proposal. Am I wrong in assuming that the upgraded product would be more expensive to the overseas buyers?

This proposal raises more questions for me than it answers and does nothing to assuage my concern that some First Nation groups who oppose Northern Gateway might be swayed just because there's an aboriginal component in the Eagle Spirit organization.

[steven lloyd]

Am I wrong in assuming that the upgraded product would be more expensive to the overseas buyers?

No, I think that is absolutely correct. We (Canadians) have a history of selling raw product to other countries to refine and sell back to us at mark up. We have long been waiting for some visionary leadership on this front. Harper has ratified a deal giving Chinese corporations the right to sue us if they don’t like our laws. And we’re worried about aboriginal corruption?

This proposal raises more questions for me than it answers and does nothing to assuage my concern that some First Nation groups who oppose Northern Gateway might be swayed just because there's an aboriginal component in the Eagle Spirit organization.

A large number of British Columbians live on First Nations lands. I have also found living in northwestern BC that the vast majority of people living up here (aboriginal and non-aboriginal) have the same values when it comes to protecting the environment. Often people want to confuse that with being anti-resource development but that is simply not the case. The economy up here has been booming and it is essentially all resource extraction based (or direct spin-offs). However, people also recognize that the Enbridge project brings very little relative benefit and all short-term with risks that are simply prohibitive.

We can agree that money is a factor in the move by the Eagle Spirit Project. So what? Money is a factor in every resource development project, and trying to paint their motivations as more nefarious than Enbridge and Harper and other foreign corporations can only be purely racist. Sure, some will point out that chiefs keep the big payoff while their people live in poverty but to assume that is the norm is a generalization and stereotype (a mental trick used to justify prejudice). Other chiefs are dedicated to providing training and employment opportunities to their members. Besides, should we assume that the CEOs of these huge multi-national conglomerates (or the politicians in their pockets) are model citizens we should emulate?

The Eagle Spirit Project will provide more jobs to Canadians – more upfront construction jobs with the building of a refinery, and more long term permanent jobs running the refinery. It will result in more tax money and royalties coming directly back to Canadians, and it will create a whole lot more economic spin-off benefits. Yes, the refinery should be built in Alberta as it makes sense being closer to the source. However, a BC refinery would be exciting as well and would still greatly mitigate risk of an environmental catastrophe. As far as setting and meeting strict standards, I would far more place my trust with Eagle Spirit, and the people who live here, than with Enbridge and Harper and foreign conglomerates more interested in maximizing profits. Just my opinion. If given the chance I’ll support Eagle Spirit (and the BC Liberals would be smart to as well).

[maryjane48]

On the weekend, Kitimat residents voted (58 per cent to 41 per cent) to reject the Enbridge pipeline proposal. Although it was a non-binding plebiscite, the outcome has been widely seen as a serious blow to the Northern Gateway proposal because the town has a long history of industrial activity and the community was going to directly benefit from job creation.

Enbridge officials have said despite the setback the company will continue to reach out to communities in B.C. in an attempt to build support in the province.

Mr. Helin, said Eagle Spirit’s proposed pipeline, which would carry synthetic crude, not heavy bitumen, has the support of “a majority” of bands in northern B.C., where Enbridge has run into stiff opposition.

Mr. Helin, a member of the Lax Kw’alaams First Nation, said non-disclosure agreements keep him from saying which bands support him.

But he did say one band – the Nee Tahi Buhn First Nation, which has about 150 members – had revoked its support for Northern Gateway and was now supporting his plan.

Ivan Giesbrecht, a spokesman for Northern Gateway, called that into doubt, however.

“Northern Gateway has not received notification of withdrawal of support by any of our Aboriginal Equity Partners. Nor have we received cancellation notification of any non-disclosure agreements,” he said in an e-mail.

Enbridge, which has also long refused to name the bands that support Northern Gateway, claims to have 26 equity partnerships in place with First Nations and Métis communities, representing about 60 per cent of the native population along the proposed route.http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/bri ... e17998955/

[Catri]

We can agree that money is a factor in the move by the Eagle Spirit Project. So what? Money is a factor in every resource development project, and trying to paint their motivations as more nefarious than Enbridge and Harper and other foreign corporations can only be purely racist.

Of course it is, I never suggested that money being a factor made them more nefarious than Enbridge. As a matter of fact I didn't really say anything about money. What I'm saying is the fact that aboriginal entrepreneurs are involved doesn't automatically make it less nefarious than Enbridge either.

[steven lloyd]

What I'm saying is the fact that aboriginal entrepreneurs are involved doesn't automatically make it less nefarious than Enbridge either.

No. What (possibly? probably?) makes them less nefarious is the fact they live here, their families live here, their children and grandchildren live here, and it is most likely to presume they have a vested interest in seeing as many people here benefiting from the project as possible (creating more spin-off benefits) and for the longest term. A person would have to be sorely naïve to think Enbridge and Harper have that same motivation. In fact, Harper's actions selling out our sovereign right to have and create our own laws that are not exposed to the legal action of foreign companies could not speak to that fact any stronger.

[Catri]

Possibly, probably even, but not automatically. My cynicism is intact. You don't have to convince me of the evils of Enbridge and Harper...I'm right there with ya.

[twobits]

Without wanting to *bleep* on the Spirit Energy parade here, the basic economics of an upgrader for the proposed pipeline capacity, even in eastern BC, just are not there. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The Aquin group does not have the capital to underwrite the entire capital cost of upgrader, pipeline, and terminal on their own. Even ignoring the fact that TW crude is around 50 bucks a barrel for the foreseeable future, this Spirit Energy proposal is a pipedream because of the undeniable reality that the return on investment is better elsewhere.
I have no doubt that the people opposed to NG are sincere in their concerns. I have some too that I would like clarified. But there also seems to be a total disconnect between the consumers demand for the product, the environmental trade off, the Gov't royalties that pay for so much, and the actual economics of someone else's money developing the resource.
What I see happening so far is a bar set so high (and that bar height cannot even be quantified or agreed upon by the dozens of interjectors with claimed interests) that we have come to the point of analysis paralysis *removed* and there is no consensus even possible.
So in the end we all lose out, First Nation et al, because it comes down to a table surrounded by people that do not understand both the concepts of compromise and economics.

Edit to add- And I wish Spirit Energy every success. To make this project fly would be a huge boon to the Canadian economy. I do however believe that when they have nailed down the support of every FN territory involved, and the monetary promises made to them for no investment other than crossing their claimed territory, that this will turn out as nothing more than an altruistic notion with no capital stepping up to the plate.