Site C

[rustled]

there is no need to have a utility supplying power when people can do it themselves . its time to cut the chains of dependance . if bcuc ennds up saying its not worth it then thats it hc can move into the future with out billions in uneeded tax money waste. if the bcuc says build it we will still go into the future except it will cost everyone money we dont really need to spend

Again, how's that energy independence thing working out for you mj?

[The Green Barbarian]

there is no need to have a utility supplying power when people can do it themselves . :

Have you ever seen the load that CNC equipment, lasers, press brakes and punches puts on an electrical grid? There is no way for industrial businesses to "do it themelves". This is just pure fantasy, and a ridiculous notion.

[erinmore3775]

Cf wrote: "Everyone seems to be ignoring other alternatives such as solar, tidal, and wave energy. B.C.'s interior is one of the sunniest areas in the country; B.C.'s coast, home to the largest population, is filled with many tidal areas (Seymour Narrows is just one example), and wave energy could be utilized anywhere along the coast."

I do not think that anyone has ignored the alternatives such as solar, tidal, and wave energy. While the interior of BC is one of the sunniest in the nation, where would you suggest placing the solar panels necessary to partially make up for the loss of Site C? If your answer is residential rooves, please consider how to encourage residential and commercial owners to participate in the conversion without substantial subsidies. Subsidies and electrical rates that were more than double the electrical rates presently in BC were the only ways government "encouraged" the movement to solar in California and Germany. How would that work in the Okanagan?

As for tidal power, you might want to start here. http://fundyforce.ca/. The highest tides in the world at the 20 megawatt Annapolis Tidal Power Plant have a daily output of roughly 80-100 megawatt hours, depending on the tides. Full commercial generation on a large scale is still years away.

Wind generation on the BC coast (west coast of Vancouver Island and in the strait near Vancouver) are real possibilities. However, the placement of windmills in the Vancouver shipping corridor may meet with some considerable opposition. Windmills to be economical must be located in a high wind area and be near a major electrical grid connection or hub. Large parts of the BC coast do not meet the grid connection criteria.

If we are to move towards SWEG as an alternative to Site C costs must be comparable. Please remember that Europe moved towards wind power, not for economic reasons but to lower their carbon footprint and to reduce airborne particulate matter and chemical pollutants. Dirty coal-fired thermal electrical plants are cheaper if you ignore the environmental considerations. Just ask China.

The time for platitudes is over. Decisions have to be made on facts, not ideology. The BCUC report has highlighted the argument around budgetary facts and figures. Unfortunately BC Hydro is the only contributor required to gaze into the future and predict costs twenty and thirty years out. What I want to see are the costs of SWEG in BC for the same time period. My crystal ball indicates that the initial costs of SWEG and Site C to be about the same if land acquisition, development, and transmission costs are included. SWEG is more expensive if solar residential and commercial subsidies have to be added to make it work. SWEG is more expensive over a 70-year timeframe due to replacement and maintenance costs.

I would love it if someone could point me to facts and figures that would show I am wrong in my appraisals.

[hobbyguy]

there is no need to have a utility supplying power when people can do it themselves . its time to cut the chains of dependance . if bcuc ennds up saying its not worth it then thats it hc can move into the future with out billions in uneeded tax money waste. if the bcuc says build it we will still go into the future except it will cost everyone money we dont really need to spend

Your assertion is wildly incorrect.

The only way that grid connected solar works is through the massive subsidy system of net metering.

What percentage of BC residents own the land/single family home to go solar? Do you know? http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016005/98-200-x2016005-eng.cfm 44% max. How many of those are renters?? I couldn't find reliable figures, but most likely about 1/3 based on available data. So that means max 33% of BC residents have the physical capability of self generated electricity of any kind. Of those 33% how many can afford the cost of such a system (usually $20,000 plus and plus more with storage)? 50% maybe??? 25% more likely. Then you have to figure that in urbanizes areas like the Vancouver region only 29% of housing is single family.

Think it through, only the wealthy can afford such systems. Fixed income seniors, the working poor, average hard working folks with mortgages, condo dwellers, townhouse dwellers, renters, the working poor etc. simply either do not have the option nor the $$$.

Your suggestion of self generation is just entirely impractical and ridiculously expensive. There are 829,948 single family homes in BC. If every one of them installed your goofy solar with the net metering scam, then the renters, working poor et al would have to pay triple or quadruple the cost for their electricity, while those fortunate enough to have the $$$ get off Scot free. Just about the regressive idea around.

Do away with the net metering scam subsidy and nobody on grid wants solar. It doesn't make any sense. It creates energy poverty for the less fortunate, and without net metering scam subsidies, it makes no financial sense for those who have $$$.

[hobbyguy]

erinmore - real world facts (not propaganda from the wind and solar industry) are that you can not have SWEG and affordable electricity.

Ontario went "all windy" and look at the cost: $45 billion in subsidies to relieve high electricity rates, and Ontario STILL has much higher rates than we do!

That's why the ideological anti-science opponents of site C can not meet the challenge:

Please post a link to a non synchronous windy-solar grid jurisdiction that has reliable, abundant, renewable and affordable electricity without subsidies.

[maryjane48]

lol you cant meet the challange of admitting bchydro is subsadized by us the rate payers .


and you also cant meet the challange of doing the right thing for bc .

[Cactusflower]

Well, I don't know about you people, but I inquired several months ago about having solar panels installed on my roof. I had no intention of having the government subsidize it. I know that in the long term it would save me money, and in the short term I'd be doing something positive for the environment. I think it's time people realized this is an environmental issue, not an ideological one.

But, back to my personal story. I discovered that because I belong to a strata corp., I wouldn't be able to go solar on my own.Then my community decided to get together and invest in a solar array so that we could all benefit. Looking forward to the project's completion.

Contrary to popular belief, not every British Columbian is looking for a handout. Some of us genuinely care about the planet, and want to try to slow the acceleration of climate change. Not only that, but we want to save what little agricultural land we have left in B.C.

[erinmore3775]

Cf glad to hear that your condo association has approved a solar installation on your residence. Would really like to hear about the costs, whether you are using net metering, the amount BC Hydro is paying you for energy, and the expected payback time of the installation. That is the type of information that would be beneficial.

Thanks for any information you wish to supply

[Merry]

It's great that you're in a financial position to pay for your own solar energy source Cactusflower, but the fact is that not every one is so fortunate. I'd love to install solar panels on my roof, but as I now live on a fixed income (retired) I'm not in a financial position to be able to do so. And I'm not alone in that.

The only way I see getting that kind of solar energy on a large scale is via Government subsidies to make it more affordable. And I'm not in favour of that idea when I know we could have lots of environmentally friendly, affordable power by developing Site C.

[hobbyguy]

Well, I don't know about you people, but I inquired several months ago about having solar panels installed on my roof. I had no intention of having the government subsidize it. I know that in the long term it would save me money, and in the short term I'd be doing something positive for the environment. I think it's time people realized this is an environmental issue, not an ideological one.

But, back to my personal story. I discovered that because I belong to a strata corp., I wouldn't be able to go solar on my own.Then my community decided to get together and invest in a solar array so that we could all benefit. Looking forward to the project's completion.

Contrary to popular belief, not every British Columbian is looking for a handout. Some of us genuinely care about the planet, and want to try to slow the acceleration of climate change. Not only that, but we want to save what little agricultural land we have left in B.C.

Ask your strata if they are applying for net metering - if they are, you will be receiving a massive government mandated ratepayer subsidy. Without that mandated ratepayer subsidy, your solar makes NO financial sense.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but you are NOT doing anything good for the environment. BC electricity is already about 93% renewable and will hit 95% + with site C. Those solar panels created environmental damage in their manufacture and transport, and will create more in their disposal when they are toast in 20 years or so (site C will be here in 100 years+).

I know you meant well, but those solar panels will contribute to driving up rates for everyone else, and do absolutely nothing for the environment in the BC context.

[Merry]

There's certainly a lot of evidence to suggest that solar panels are not as "green" as we like to think:

Fabricating the panels requires caustic chemicals such as sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid, and the process uses water as well as electricity, the production of which emits greenhouse gases. It also creates waste. These problems could undercut solar's ability to fight climate change and reduce environmental toxics.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-ranking/

[erinmore3775]

Catusflower's revelation that she had been able to convince her strata corporation to embrace a rooftop solar installation encouraged me to contact my cousin in Ontario and inquire how her desire to go solar was going. I originally wrote about this on this forum on May 25 of this year. Her is a summary of her latest inquiries.

My cousin has a desire "not being a slave to a utility" for the 1200sq ft home she would like to build on the shores of the Bay of Quinte. It is for $24,624.54 PLUS GST and PST! This installation includes solar panels, storage batteries, inverter, and back-up generator. She was offered a $3500 rebate through an Ontario green grant program. If she wanted to sell back power to Hydro One, she would be required to pay an additional $8,000 to $10,000 to install the hydro poles and line depending on if the lines and transformer could be split with the neighbour’s property. The neighbours, a younger couple, have indicated that they are not interested in servicing their property at this time. At 68, she has a snowball's chance in a very warm place of recouping her costs before moving off to the old folks home.

Not to be deterred, she is considering the purchase of a 1,100 sq ft bungalow in the town of Napanee. She wants to install solar on the roof. The contractor informed her that she would new a new roof and because of the location of the house (in the shadow of a two storey) the number of she can effectively use on the roof is limited. The cost of the new roof and the panel complete with the new electrical panel and the improvements to the home required by the building code, $14, 328.56 taxes in. She has been advised by Hydro One that her application for “net metering” and approval of her electrical generation installation may take six to eight months. She was advised not to sign any contracts until she has the actual approval. The solar and roofing companies will only guarantee their estimate for 3 months."


Having recently gone through a roofing project on our townhouse strata complex in Kelowna, I will be interested to hear about the per unit costs of the solar installation for Catusflower's strata and whether or not the installation will be done over the existing roof. In Ontario, most installers of solar panels do not recommend installation on any roof that is over 5 years old. My cousin has once again decided that the payback, either through net metering or through the increased value of the house is not substantial for her to consider solar roof installations. The cost-benefit ratio may be different for a strata corporation, but it may also be more complicated. The strata roof is common property. The electricity for all common areas and fixtures is paid for by the strata corporation. The solar panels would be unit owned and could only be installed on the roof with the consent of all corporate partners. The only way that little hiccup could be alleviated is by the strata corporation assuming all electrical utility costs and the costs then being "averaged" into the strata fees.

I sincerely hope that Catusflower will keep us abreast of the progress of their strata solar project, its permitting, costs, and how long it takes. I can only wish them the best.

[Merry]

In Ontario, most installers of solar panels do not recommend installation on any roof that is over 5 years old.

This caught my eye, because it seems to put paid to the idea that we can all just go and install solar panels on our roofs (assuming we can afford it). Now it sounds as though we'd have to replace the roof as well (MORE money).

[Urban Cowboy]

In Ontario, most installers of solar panels do not recommend installation on any roof that is over 5 years old.

This caught my eye, because it seems to put paid to the idea that we can all just go and install solar panels on our roofs (assuming we can afford it). Now it sounds as though we'd have to replace the roof as well (MORE money).

Exactly. Roofs are designed for a certain load and solar panels become an extra part of that equation.

It's nowhere near as simple, cut and dried, as people like mj would like the masses to think it is.

[hobbyguy]

lol you cant meet the challange of admitting bchydro is subsadized by us the rate payers .


and you also cant meet the challange of doing the right thing for bc .

Yes I can, we don't subsidize BC Hydro. We pay the 3rd lowest rates in North America.

Do you even understand the meaning of subsidy? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subsidy

"a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public "

BC Hydro gets no subsidy from the government (taxpayers), in fact NDPers have been complaining about the dividends being paid TO the government FROM BC Hydro.

In contrast Ontario is paying $45 billion (minimum) in rate subsidies from taxpayers to reduce the high cost of wind electricity, because they got sucked in by the wind industry lobby and their lapdogs like desmog. Let's see now, $45 billion (plus $billions more wasted in construction and other subsidies) for part time unreliable electricity or $9 billion for renewable energy that is reliable and affordable. Gee, tough choice.

So:

Please post a link to a windy-solar non synchronous grid jurisdiction that has abundant, reliable, renewable, affordable electricity without subsidies.