School rankings released

[goatboy]

So tell me - why do you suppose they couldn't get a job in the public system?

Because they didn't want to work 5 years on call in Enderby.
Because a poor performing teacher was occupying the position
Because too many kids going into University see being a teacher as a cushy job so we are graduating far too many new teachers. Which is funny because if you were to believe BCTF propaganda, working as a teacher in BC is akin to being in a gulag.

[goatboy]

Most private school teachers are just as capable as public school teachers and obviously some choose private over public regardless of the fact that they often get paid less.

That's a pretty condescending remark. I'd say that there are excellent, good and poor teachers in both systems. Some private teachers far exceed their public counterparts and some public teachers far exceed their private counterparts. I wonder what the actual net income is for private vs public once you take into account benefits and Union Dues are?

[KGT]

That's a pretty condescending remark. I'd say that there are excellent, good and poor teachers in both systems. Some private teachers far exceed their public counterparts and some public teachers far exceed their private counterparts. I wonder what the actual net income is for private vs public once you take into account benefits and Union Dues are?

I disagree that it's condescending. We are both saying the exact same thing. There are excellent, good, and poor teachers in both systems just as there are a range of abilities in any career.

Re: private school wages - the expensive (and top performing) private schools in Vancouver pay on par with their local public school teacher wages.

My understanding is that the religious schools pay less - I've heard it's about 60-70% of public school wages but I don't know if that's true. My husband taught in the catholic school for a number of years and that was was he thought the difference was back then. I don't know if their benefits are more or less the same but I suspect private (religious) schools have poorer benefits. Obviously they are saving union dues. No clue about their pension either.

[KGT]

Because they didn't want to work 5 years on call in Enderby.
Because a poor performing teacher was occupying the position
Because too many kids going into University see being a teacher as a cushy job so we are graduating far too many new teachers. Which is funny because if you were to believe BCTF propaganda, working as a teacher in BC is akin to being in a gulag.

I have no idea what it's like to get a job in Enderby. My experience is only with SD23. And it is very competitive.

I agree that some kids go into teaching because they think it's going to be a cushy job but they usually get weeded out on their practicum - either voluntarily or not.

[goatboy]

[
My understanding is that the religious schools pay less - I've heard it's about 60-70% of public school wages but I don't know if that's true. My husband taught in the catholic school for a number of years and that was was he thought the difference was back then. I don't know if their benefits are more or less the same but I suspect private (religious) schools have poorer benefits. Obviously they are saving union dues. No clue about their pension either.

I couldn't find Kelowna but I found the Vancouver Catholic School salary grid.

http://www.vcsta.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Compensation-Package-2011-2013.pdf

A Category 5 teacher with 10 years experience makes $71,407 at the Catholic school and $75,840 at SD 39 (Vancouver). Looks like they have a pretty comprehensive benefit and pension plan. Once you take off the $1,300 BCTF dues there's only a $3,100 difference.

[KGT]

I couldn't find Kelowna but I found the Vancouver Catholic School salary grid.

http://www.vcsta.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Compensation-Package-2011-2013.pdf

A Category 5 teacher with 10 years experience makes $71,407 at the Catholic school and $75,840 at SD 39 (Vancouver). Looks like they have a pretty comprehensive benefit and pension plan. Once you take off the $1,300 BCTF dues there's only a $3,100 difference.

Interesting. I wonder if the Catholic school wages are any different in Kelowna.

[erinmore3775]

Goatboy wrote:

"The sky isn't falling and we can't afford to throw money at something that isn't broken. What we can do, is use results from thing like the FSA to help identify under performing schools and help them get better. Teacher evaluations must be a part of this because to not even consider this as one possible reason is ridiculous."

The sky may not be falling in the district where you live, but for most rural boards and many lower mainland boards their systems are about to break. They can no longer maintain their current standards without making severe cuts. These can mean school closing forcing students to be bused up to a total of 3 hours a day to get to school. It means class sizes greater than the Ministry mandates. It means reduced special needs support. In many cases it means school maintenance and cleaning reduced to the point where Administrators are expected to perform cleaning duties between 8AM and 4:30PM.

I find it fascinating that while you suggest, " What we can do, is use results from thing like the FSA to help identify under performing schools and help them get better." You refuse to consider any of the suggestion that I made. They were:

The government could also choose to acknowledge the problem and work to solve it. This could be accomplished by:

- Meeting with Trustees Administrators, and Teacher to identify the three major causes of educational student performance discrepancies between urban and rural areas.
- Development of a 5 year plan that would focus resources on the identified areas.
- Set reasonable performance expectations for improvement in these areas and reward boards for meeting these goals.
- Require teacher education programs to include parent involvement programs and specific program acknowledgment of the educational growth needs of lower socio-economic students.
- A renegotiation of the regional funding formulas
- Incentives for amalgamation of boards of education.

Instead you choose to focus on the teachers. Purposely forgetting that both private and public school teachers are required to be evaluated regularly. In the public school system they are required to undergo Administration directed or supervised professional development every three years. Overall the profession standards that BC teachers, both private and public, are among the highest in Canada.

What I have surmised id that:

- you are not a parent or grandparent of a designated special needs student in the public school system
- you are not a parent who is trying to get their child evaluated for a learning disability in the public school system
- you are not a parent of a child who rides a bus over an hour each way to a rural school
- you are not a citizen in a smaller community that has to face the closing of their local school, what is used not only as a school but a community center and now their children must be bused to another community.

I would also suggest that those entering the current teaching profession are really dedicated. In order to get a full time position in most areas requires significant time on the "on call" list.

It is time that we stopped blaming and started to work to make the public system a better system.

[Veovis]

Yes there are other factors to measure but why ignore the #1?

I interpret that statement differently than you do, but I leave it Veovis to clarify.

I assume you and Veovis mean that the #1 reason the low SES school perform more poorly is because they have crappy teachers.

Teachers are the #1 influence on a childs education. There clarrified, they are also the one influence you feel should never be examined.

You like to refer to studies that show factors that have an effect on learning outcomes. So you must support such studies. The FSA test is exactly that type of study. It is a study on the #1 influence on children learning outcomes, and definitively the most influential one and one you feel should never never be examined.

Why? Spends millions studying hunger but not educator capabilities? Trends due to high income and low income areas can be factored in, not in the BCTF way of "I'll just give a failing grade an A so they feel better" but in the process of finding and addressing areas of lacking in the education system. And teachers (including yourself) are massively opposed to ever working with the system to improve it only "throw more money".

These tests could be a benefit and a tool, in fact they already are, you just hate them.....but studies that allow you to blame everything but a teacher....those you love.

[goatboy]

It is time that we stopped blaming and started to work to make the public system a better system.

The point of all my posts is to highlight how teachers and the BCTF take no responsibility in the results of the FSA tests. It's always someone else's fault. That's a self serving approach for them to take and serves no one well.

There are a multitude of reasons why a school ranks where it does. Some schools will always rank lower than others. To me, a single years ranking is somewhat irrelevant. Use it as a benchmark to improve. That is how the FSA can be used effectively and the quality of the teachers and administration in a struggling school must be looked at, along with a whole host of other things. The goal should be to steady improve, not to find excuses why a school ranked where it did.

[goatboy]

What I have surmised id that:

- you are not a parent or grandparent of a designated special needs student in the public school system
- you are not a parent who is trying to get their child evaluated for a learning disability in the public school system
- you are not a parent of a child who rides a bus over an hour each way to a rural school
- you are not a citizen in a smaller community that has to face the closing of their local school, what is used not only as a school but a community center and now their children must be bused to another community.

.

-I did not have special needs kids in school
-See answer #1
-I had to drive my child to school every day as our school (Catholic) did not provide transportation.
-Money is tight. Do you keep a uneconomical school open at the expense of something else?

So far in this thread it has been suggested that all we need to do to fix these problems is to:

Provide extra help for special need kids
Keep small, non-cost effective rural schools open
fully funded breakfast and lunch program
before/after school home work support classes for upper intermediate and high school students
free after school care for kids with working parents
free parenting courses
full subsidized daycare
increase minimum wage for working parents
stronger supports for mental illness, drug/alcohol addiction
free post secondary education, while receiving a living wage, to increase skills of parents working at low income jobs

Easy, probably wouldn't even cost much to do.

[erinmore3775]

Goatboy, I am impressed that you are able to drive your child to school and that you recognize that "money is tight" but you fail to address some of the major problems that exist in rural areas and in many area where boards must deal with urban centers and a rural population.

Like many, who choose only to see their satisfied place in the education system you and others fail to address those educational problems regularly faced by those that are outside your comfort zone.

I find it is interesting that while you seem to put down the socio-economic problems that may curtail educational progress. Instead of saying everything is all right lets see if the system can be made better. The MOE and the Province say we have the best teachers, you disagree. The MOE and you say the Provinces School Boards do a poor job of spending our education dollars. Yet both you and the MOE refuse to examine how the money could better spent. The government could also choose to acknowledge the problem and work to solve it. This could be accomplished by:

- Meeting with Trustees Administrators, and Teacher to identify the three major causes of educational student performance discrepancies between urban and rural areas.
- Development of a 5 year plan that would focus resources on the identified areas.
- Set reasonable performance expectations for improvement in these areas and reward boards for meeting these goals.
- Require teacher education programs to include parent involvement programs and specific program acknowledgment of the educational growth needs of lower socio-economic students.
- A renegotiation of the regional funding formulas
- Incentives for amalgamation of boards of education.
Please explain why you do not support these ideas or at the very least explain how you would improve the system.

[KGT]

It's cheaper to support children and families than it is to build and staff jails.

[The Green Barbarian]

It's cheaper to support children and families than it is to build and staff jails.

Depends on what you mean by "support". Your largesse regarding your plan of subsidized day-cares alone would be mega-billions. Per year. Let alone the crazed plan to pay people a "living wage" (whatever that is) while going to university to get more skills, on the taxpayer dime. At which point they would want an even higher "living wage" after graduation because now they had schooling (of some sort) when they were already being paid more than the market could support for their prior skill level. But hey, you can rationalize any expenditure when you tell everyone that if they don't listen to you and support your spending plans, then everyone is going to end up in jail.

[KGT]

Depends on what you mean by "support". Your largesse regarding your plan of subsidized day-cares alone would be mega-billions. Per year. Let alone the crazed plan to pay people a "living wage" (whatever that is) while going to university to get more skills, on the taxpayer dime....

So you are ok with young children being home alone after school because mom has to work?

[rustled]

... Require teacher education programs to include parent involvement programs and specific program acknowledgment of the educational growth needs of lower socio-economic students. ...

Curious about several of your fixes, but this one is particularly perplexing.

In my experience, teachers already work hard to involve parents. The parents who most need to be involved are the most difficult to engage. (School boards already try to involve these parents. Administrators already try to involve these parents. Parents already try to involve other these parents. But teachers already try hardest.)

What would your "fix" look like? Teachers cannot hogtie these parents, drag them into the school, and force them to participate. Would you have the teacher do home visits?

Teachers are already well aware of the educational growth needs of lower socio-economic students. I find it really odd and a little condescending that you'd think they're unaware. And even odder that you'd suggest if only the teachers had more awareness this would somehow "fix" the problem. Teacher awareness won't put food in those kids' bellies, help them with their homework, make sure they have reasonable time to play in a calm and happy household, and make sure they get enough sleep.

Yet you seem to think if our teachers were better educated, this would help. Well, what does this additional education look like? To me, it sounds like the already bloated business side of educating educators getting more bloated.