Pipelines

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Pipelines

Postby klobear » Nov 20th, 2016, 8:36 am

Are all these activists crazy? Where do they think their oil and gas comes from? Why continue to import a natural resource when we as a country can be self sufficient in the supply of oil and gas if we need to. These new pipelines to Western and Eastern Canada and the United States will provide much needed business for our fellow Canadians to earn a decent living, thus providing for their families. Not to mention the tax benefits they will provide to all of our Governments! People the world over envy our social benefit programs. The money for these programs comes in part from the taxes and royalties the government receives from the oil and gas industry. And what about all the other businesses that are indirectly related? Have these people thought about the alternatives, or even suggested replacements for the jobs and the taxes they provide? Wake up people! Lets get this country working again so that future generations can continue to prosper!

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Re: Pipelines

Postby vegas1500 » Nov 20th, 2016, 9:02 am

Couldn't agree more!
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Re: Pipelines

Postby the truth » Nov 20th, 2016, 10:19 am

klobear wrote:Are all these activists crazy? Where do they think their oil and gas comes from? Why continue to import a natural resource when we as a country can be self sufficient in the supply of oil and gas if we need to. These new pipelines to Western and Eastern Canada and the United States will provide much needed business for our fellow Canadians to earn a decent living, thus providing for their families. Not to mention the tax benefits they will provide to all of our Governments! People the world over envy our social benefit programs. The money for these programs comes in part from the taxes and royalties the government receives from the oil and gas industry. And what about all the other businesses that are indirectly related? Have these people thought about the alternatives, or even suggested replacements for the jobs and the taxes they provide? Wake up people! Lets get this country working again so that future generations can continue to prosper!



safe to say they all drive cars that need gas and oil :laugh: they are all hypocrites
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Re: Pipelines

Postby twobits » Nov 20th, 2016, 8:59 pm

the truth wrote:


safe to say they all drive cars that need gas and oil :laugh: they are all hypocrites


They are all groupies of the worlds biggest hypocrite .....David Suzuki. Never mind the cars that they all own, even if electric cuz they are 80% petroleum product as well, or the groceries they eat that were delivered by truck, or even the shoes they wear to march the streets. Lol, even the streets they protest on are petroleum. They are clueless to what depth their hypocrisy runs.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby the truth » Nov 20th, 2016, 9:01 pm

yup :up:
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Re: Pipelines

Postby spooker » Nov 20th, 2016, 10:49 pm

Yes I own a car, yes I know where the fuel comes from that it uses, yes I understand what oil provides besides just the gas that flows into combustion engines ...

But no, I don't want to see it be more convenient to pull oil out of the ground and ship it everywhere ... no I want to see the price of gas go up to make myself and others think about how important it is that I drive that one kilometre to the grocery store to buy more fructose heavy snacks for my kids ...

Our family car gets about 8,000 kilometres put on it every year ... yet I pay for 20,000 to ICBC thanks to the "average" ... if I'm average that means that I put 12,000 kilometres on my bicycle which makes me feel pretty good (and usually stress free for not having to deal with too much traffic)

I'd rather my tax dollars go toward innovation that reduces the effect humans have on the climate ... I'd rather not see more risk of spills by pipelines crossing some of the best land that I'd rather go hiking, camping, and biking through ...

Yeah, so far this thread looks like a love-in for a bunch of lifted-truck driving, environment hating, hydrocarbon loving jet jockies ... but that's fine ... we can all express our opinion and think we're better than someone else for some reason or other, humans are great at rationalizing whatever we want to believe ...

Just saying ...
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Re: Pipelines

Postby hobbyguy » Nov 21st, 2016, 3:34 pm

The problem isn't with supply pipelines. The problem is with EXPORT pipelines and tankers.

The second problem is that the refinery in Burnaby is being squeezed out because the pipeline won't give them priority for grades they can handle. As far as I know, no refinery in BC can handle dilbit, which is largely what the KM pipeline now carries.

IF you want a pipeline east, then it should go to replace imports, creating jobs in Canada with Canadian resources. That would not be nearly as hard to sell as the EXPORT pipeline being proposed.

None of the proposed pipelines will support more than a couple hundred jobs in Canada (other than Alberta), and the coastal provinces take all the risk/cost while getting diddly. IF the feds had their heads on right, they would simply say Energy East but the product must be refined in Canada to replace the imports. Lots of good jobs back east makes it a far easier sell, and fewer tankers on the import side would go a fair ways to making an environmental argument.

That's the key element, that they are export pipelines. The jurisdictions which they flow through see almost no benefit and big time risks.

Who benefits from export pipelines? The likes of CNOOC... not Canadians.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby twobits » Nov 21st, 2016, 7:23 pm

spooker wrote:Yes I own a car, yes I know where the fuel comes from that it uses, yes I understand what oil provides besides just the gas that flows into combustion engines ...



Great. So you are done consuming oil to the level at which you are comfortable and feel that everyone else has also bought that vehicle you have, the computer you typed this post with, and even the bicycle that took oil to forge the steel frame and the rubber it rides on to run to the convenience store with instead of the car. You are now done with your minimal needs and maintenance of lifestyle. So you just want to close the door on the rest of the population that does not have what you have because you are happy with what you have extracted to this point.
Do you even hear yourself? You are cut from the same cloth as Suzuki. Preach reduce oil extraction when you have used enough yourself. You may be more modest in your use than Suzuki jetting around the globe being paid 100k per speech to build his multi million dollar homes and heat them, but there are no degree's in levels of hypocrisy. You either are or you are not....and you are. To suggest there is, is like saying a $1000 call girl is different than a $50 hooker. They are both prostitutes that just conveniently have different standards. If you want to preach to the world to not rely on oil, then lead by example and live oil free instead of expecting 90%, yes 90%, of the global population to not want to achieve even your self reported humble lifestyle. And then tell us how they are going to do that at the same cost you did with solar, wind, and plastics made from corn oil or hemp?
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Re: Pipelines

Postby twobits » Nov 21st, 2016, 7:42 pm

hobbyguy wrote:Who benefits from export pipelines? The likes of CNOOC... not Canadians.


You may want to reconsider that blanket statement unless you think that everyone employed in NE BC, Alberta, Sask., Man, and Newfoundland employed in the oil industry as well as equipment manufacturing in Ontario and all other supply chains across Canada are not Canadians. Would also have to include the billions in royalty fee's did not benefit any Canadians either. Well, OK, mostly Quebec that doesn't want a pipeline to cross their territory, but they are still strictly by definition Canadian.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby klobear » Nov 21st, 2016, 8:54 pm

I wonder how many people have really thought about how big a role the oil industry plays in our everyday lives? Does my job rely on a healthy oil industry? Why do we have to import any oil? Why can't we build more refineries? How do my everyday needs get to the stores I purchase them from? If I don't own land to grow produce on, how would I get it? If my family relies on meat and fish and poultry, would I be able to kill and process these animals for my needs? And would I be able to manage the time for these tasks? When the many uses of oil were discovered they made our lives easier, allowing us the ability to spend more time with our families, travel to destinations our grandparents only dreamt of, and provided the manufacturing processes for most of our technological gadgets! Instead of decrying the negative aspects of the oil industry. Why can't we find a better way to work in harmony with it, while still reaping its benefits. And, use the profits from the oil industry to expand solar and wind energy. How about getting the oil companies more involved in these endeavors? We as a people are nowhere near being able to do away with the use of oil!

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Re: Pipelines

Postby hobbyguy » Nov 21st, 2016, 10:21 pm

I have thought it through carefully. You have to balance off against so many factors - like all the tourism, sport fishing, whale watching, cruise ship activity, commercial fishing, aboriginal fishing, etc.

How many cruise ships will come to visit if the coastline is covered in goop? etc.

All that gets put at risk every time a tanker goes through our waters. Prince William Sound has still not recovered...

"World Class" spill response does not provide much comfort. BP only cleaned up about 15% and the rest was hit with highly toxic dispersants and left in the environment.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/19/despite-rosy-report-bp-still-cleaning-up-oil/25001431/
http://www.livescience.com/49664-deepwater-horizon-missing-oil.html

So when there is a spill, the environmental problems and negative economic problems go on for decades. If you have built a business whale watching or doing sport fishing charters or anything that relies on the ocean affected - your goose is cooked. And the likes of BP and CNOOC aren't going to care and they aren't going to be compensating you 5 years on let alone 20 or 30 or 40 years on.

Yes, the industry will happily tell us "it doesn't happen, we are really good at it now". Yup, and platforms like BP's don't blow up either. Yes, the tanker industry has gotten a LOT safer. But they still have an average of 3.3 significant spills per year. A much smaller risk than it used to be, but still a significant risk.

Most of the employment generated outside of the oil patch for goods and services in Canada is short term, related to capital expenditures.

I also recognize that Alberta faces a LOT of challenges. This may not help: http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/08/investing/apache-huge-oil-discovery/

However, the potential sacrifices outside of Alberta are very large.

Too bad the NEP wasn't fixed rather than dumped at Alberta's insistence. There would be a pipeline east, and the refineries to take the product in a guaranteed market....hmmm....just what Alberta wants for Christmas.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby spooker » Nov 21st, 2016, 11:07 pm

twobits wrote:If you want to preach to the world to not rely on oil, then lead by example and live oil free instead of expecting 90%, yes 90%, of the global population to not want to achieve even your self reported humble lifestyle.


After living in Europe for 5 years where gas was double what it was at the pump here was really my turning point. I do try to lead by example, making my own cargo trailer for trips to Home Depot by bike ... but I've given up on expecting anyone to pay attention ... it's taken me a long time reverse what the 70's and 80's did to me ... can't expect that from the general public ...

I'll share what's important to me, and why ... I'd like to get the same in return so that maybe if we keep an open mind we can find a way to not call each other names ...

Pipelines make money at either end, but never in the middle ... yet that's where the risk is ... where no one is paying attention ... we've had oil for how many decades now and do you feel that your life has grown that much richer for it? time to find a different solution ...
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Re: Pipelines

Postby GordonH » Nov 22nd, 2016, 12:09 am

spooker wrote:After living in Europe for 5 years where gas was double what it was at the pump here was really my turning point. I do try to lead by example, making my own cargo trailer for trips to Home Depot by bike ... but I've given up on expecting anyone to pay attention ... it's taken me a long time reverse what the 70's and 80's did to me ... can't expect that from the general public ...

I'll share what's important to me, and why ... I'd like to get the same in return so that maybe if we keep an open mind we can find a way to not call each other names ...

Pipelines make money at either end, but never in the middle ... yet that's where the risk is ... where no one is paying attention ... we've had oil for how many decades now and do you feel that your life has grown that much richer for it? time to find a different solution ...


Kinder Morgan Mountain pipeline does make money in between the 2 ends. Because it supplies BC southern interior & Kootenay's with all of its gasoline & diesel (along with Jet fuel) needs out of the Terminal in Kamloops.
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Re: Pipelines

Postby driveangry » Nov 22nd, 2016, 10:22 am

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Re: Pipelines

Postby hobbyguy » Nov 22nd, 2016, 11:17 am

Gordon - yes it does make money by moving end product to Kamloops etc. Money for refineries in Edmonton. Not for BC. Most of the refineries in BC have been closed.http://abarrelfull.wikidot.com/refineries-that-have-been-closed-down-in-canada

The point is that economic benefits for BC from an export pipeline are pretty darn close to zero. The NGP, when finished, was to provide - wait for it - 160 jobs for BC.

It goes back to the analysis done by CERI on pipeline choices. By far the best economic choice for Canada is a pipeline east and refine in product to replace imports. CERI is an industry sponsored and run group. The industry is obviously aware of what is best for Canada, creating the most jobs, the most economic benefit, the least environmental impact, and lowest risk by doing that. It also has the most positive impact on Canada's balance of trade/current account deficits.

But, but, but that best option for Canada is the weakest economic case for Alberta (still a big plus, but not nearly as good as straight export where all benefits flow to Alberta), but the best option for Canada is not as profitable for the players involved (still very profitable, but not as profitable as export), but the best option for Canada does nothing to advance the interests of CNOOC et al who want to refine the product and create jobs in China or elsewhere.

This is not an "all or nothing". It is simply time for Canada to step up, and say no! Canada first, and then your other interests if there is spare capacity.

Energy east plus refine in Canada or nothing. That should be the stance.
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