Kinder Morgan?

[maryjane48]

Let’s start with the proposition that the product of the tar sands in Alberta is viciously poisonous, whether spilt on land, in the ocean, or put into the atmosphere. To talk of “world class cleanup” methods for bitumen (dilbit) is a cruel oxymoron. To pretend that massive accidents – carefully called “incidents” – are minor risks insults the intelligence.


The pious suggestion by government and industry that the undertaking underwent a “rigorous scientific investigation” is pure *bleep*! It underwent (if that’s the word), a disgraceful National Energy Board hearing, the process Trudeau ran against in 2015 and, for fairness, was on a par with Soviet Union show trials. A process so egregiously biased that Marc Eliesen (former CEO of B.C. Hydro, former chair of Ontario Hydro, former chair of Manitoba Hydro, deputy minister in seven different federal and provincial governments, with 40 years’ executive experience in the energy sector, including as a board member at Suncor) withdrew as an intervenor, calling the proceedings “fraudulent”. So much for the “rigorous scientific examination” that Prime Minister Trudeau and Kinder Morgan tell British Columbians to rely upon for the security of Burrard Inlet, Vancouver Harbour, the Salish Sea, the Gulf Islands, the Straits of Juan de Fuca and the rest of our pristine coast.

Let’s also remember that Prime Minister Trudeau made himself an international hero of the environment by stating clearly, beyond a doubt, at the Paris conference in November 2015, that fossil fuels must be phased out and that Canada was back in the game and raring to go. The principal concern was and remains climate change, he noted, and Canada would enthusiastically resist putting more fossil fuels into the atmosphere – in fact would both reduce them substantially and help other countries do the same.

Not unnaturally, people in British Columbia, concerned about their own environment as well as that of the world in general, were relieved at this unwonted leadership. The newly elected Prime Minister was seen in a new light as a forthright, dedicated environmentalist and not the weak dissembler we originally took him for. Sometimes, alas here, one is right the first time.


Aboriginal rights, like treaty rights, are recognized and affirmed by Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. The Supreme Court of Canada has held that this provision protects a spectrum of different kinds of rights, including legal recognition of customary practices such as marriage and adoption, the site-specific exercise of food harvesting and other rights that don’t involve claims to the land itself, and assertions of an Aboriginal title to traditional lands.”

At this writing, there are at least a dozen discrete First Nations challenging Kinder Morgan, each of which will presumably go to the Court of Appeal thence to the SCC. There seems little likelihood many, if any, have sufficient in common to be united for trial. Given that none of the First Nations have a sense of urgency, how long do you think these cases will take? How long will Kinder Morgan have to be promising investors “soon”?




http://commonsensecanadian.ca/true-patr ... ver-built/

[Jflem1983]

So Saudi oil is cleaner and safer ? Interesting ? Why don't you spew hate on the Saudis? Why always trying to trash hard working Albertans? Did you go to Alberta once to try and make your fortune ? Only to find out you have work for it ? Is that why you are so bitter towards Alberta oil

[Jflem1983]

The Saudi Arabian labor force is comprised of approximately 7.12 million workers. These workers enjoy few rights. The formation of unions is strictly prohibited, strikes are forbidden, and there is no collective bargaining. In the absence of a minimum wage, employers are free to pay their workers as they see fit.

[maryjane48]

first no one said saudi oil . second price oil is going down not up . less places want it as solar and wind come online . tesla is worth more than gm ford or dodge. does that not tell you anything ?


go cry to your buddies the christian labour union . otherwise known as a tool of union busters . pun intended .

facts are your dirty little cesspool known as tarsands is finished . get with times or get left behind. choice is yours

[hobbyguy]

There is little point trying to reason with those who choose to view the entire world of human endeavor through the lens of permanent protest.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/first-nations-vow-to-fight-on-despite-neb-approval-for-trans-mountain-pipeline

"Some First Nations, including the Simpcw in the Interior, are supportive. But key First Nations on the coast remain opposed, including the Tsleil-Waututh, Squamish and Musqueam."

"Legal experts says Canadian law does not give First Nations the power to halt projects"

But they will obstruct, obstruct, obstruct. And on what legitimate grounds? None.

[maryjane48]

the only experts that matter is the scoc. their rights are in our charter . facts vs fiction

[hobbyguy]

Interesting point in this article: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/bc-versus-alberta-a-showdown-that-will-test-confederation/article35210680/

"The Constitution is clear: Projects such as Trans Mountain fall under federal jurisdiction. The NDP and Greens just don’t care.

Green Party Leader Andrew Weaver speaks of the need for democracy. Mr. Weaver’s version of democracy appears to be that if his position does not determine the outcome of a legal, democratically established process, then the process must have been undemocratic.

Taken to its logical extreme, if every special interest group does not get its way, do we have not one but literally dozens or even hundreds of aggrieved groups seeking parallel power to govern the country? Do we degenerate into Canada becoming much less than the sum of its parts? That is, 13 nation states – most of which would be bankrupt?"

That bold statement goes to my longstanding position that the far left and the far right have more in common than what separates them - they both want to dictate rather compromise.

[hobbyguy]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bcs-ndp-greens-enter-tricky-terrain-moving-from-campaigning-to-governing/article35279674/

"Alberta NDP Premier Rachel Notley isn’t at the mercy of another party to sustain her government, but she does know something about taking over office after a long stint in opposition. She is also equipped to impart knowledge about the matters people ultimately care most about when it comes to their government.

The Premier told me during a chat last week that while she appreciates B.C. NDP Leader John Horgan may have apprehensions when it comes to the Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, she said he will also need to demonstrate concern for good jobs for regular working families if and when he takes over as premier.

“I think when they are a little ways into government and they are faced with that issue, with the weight of governance on their shoulders, it will put that particular consideration into much sharper focus,” Ms. Notley said.

In other words, it’s one thing to campaign against pipelines and the construction of hydro-electric dams, but when you start throwing people out of work as a result of your actions it becomes another thing entirely. Maybe most people in Metro Vancouver don’t rely on hard-hat jobs to earn a living, but there is another part of the province that does. And while voters didn’t elect many NDP MLAs outside of the Lower Mainland in the recent provincial election, the party will soon have to concern itself with that half of the province, too."

[seewood]

facts are your dirty little cesspool known as tarsands is finished . get with times or get left behind. choice is yours

Nope, sorry don't agree.
However I will say Kinder Morgan and the Alberta Government will continue to knock their heads against the wall trying to push for pipelines.

When collectively they finally decide to upgrade the dilbit in Alberta and pipe upgraded oil that does not require a return line of the thinning solution, explain that material does float on water, might be easier to clean up, won't sink creating a layer of asphalt on river /ocean/lake bottoms. Also, I still think they should try and come to an agreement to ship the stuff from Cherry Point, Not Vancouver harbor.

[lasnomadas]

They've been 'shipping the stuff' to Cherry Point for years, then shipping the refined product back to us. Why do you think we pay so much at the pumps? No, none of this AB bitumen is benefiting B.C., not now, and not in the future. The 'stuff' in the new pipeline is destined to be exported to China via Burrard Inlet, the Salish Sea (or as I prefer to call it, 'Georgia Strait'), and Juan de Fuca Strait.

Sorry, Rache, we just won't allow it. You're going to have to be satisfied with the Keystone XL.

[GordonH]

They've been 'shipping the stuff' to Cherry Point for years, then shipping the refined product back to us. Why do you think we pay so much at the pumps? No, none of this AB bitumen is benefiting B.C., not now, and not in the future. The 'stuff' in the new pipeline is destined to be exported to China via Burrard Inlet, the Salish Sea (or as I prefer to call it, 'Georgia Strait'), and Juan de Fuca Strait.

Sorry, Rache, we just won't allow it. You're going to have to be satisfied with the Keystone XL.

If the twining of the pipeline is stopped, I've got a question:
How do they (Horgan & Weaver) plan on stopping transportation of bitumen by rail tankers.

Answer: they can't

Added later: I'm not a supporter, just a realist.

[hobbyguy]

What would the ramifications of the NDP forcing the reroute of the pipeline to Cherry Point be?

1. The good paying permanent jobs (not a big number) that are planned for BC would go away.
2. The flow of gasoline from Edmonton to Vancouver via the Trans Mountain pipeline has been restricted as the demand for export crude and crude for BC refineries priced it out of contention. That would not change, and could possibly increase the dependence of Vancouver on American gasoline.
3. BC would lose $50 million per year in payments from K-M to the provincial coffers. That's a significant dent in the ability to fund social programs.
4. The very significant improvements to BC's marine safety and spill response regimes by the federal was in response to approval of the K-M proposal. That improvement would most likely be cut back or eliminated because its source of funding is the additional royalties from the expand pipeline system. That would negatively affect the rest of BC's coast, where facilities and capabilities are marginal at best.
5. There would be an increase in tankers leaving Cherry Point, and traveling through the same waters and through Juan De Fuca. So the tankers would still be there in increased numbers, and without the risk reduction/elimination factors included in the enhanced marine safety package. Wildlife like Orcas do not recognize the artificial dotted line on the map.

In short, there just is no upside. Especially as such a move by the NDP would provoke a constitutional crisis.

[lasnomadas]

@hobbyguy:
1. There are far more good paying permanent jobs in alternative renewable energy than there would be due to the KM expansion, and that was true even when the BC Liberals tried to stop those projects in favour of Site C.
2. The sole lower mainland refinery has had to fight tooth and nail to get any crude from TransMountain for years, and still we have to import refined AB bitumen from the US. Nothing will change until B.C. smartens up and reverses the flow of B.C oil to AB and sends it to our own refineries instead.
3. That $50 million a year can easily be off-set by.........well, let's not go there just yet.
4. Please fill me in on those 'very significant improvements to B.C.'s marine safety and spill response regimes'. Judging by the coastal spills over the past year, there have been no improvements.
5. There would be no increase of tanker traffic from Cherry Point if the KM expansion is stopped. That rail threat is laughable. Even Notley knows the bitumen miners can't afford to ship their crud that way.

"Constitutional crisis"........pffft.

[hobbyguy]

1. False. Most of the jobs in the alternate energy are subsidized and unsustainable. The biggest percentage of "alternate energy" jobs in California are installers, mostly of solar panels heavily subsidized by the state. Nobody is going to make PV panels etc. in BC, they will come from China and elsewhere.

2. The small refinery in the lower mainland is both small and obsolete and nowhere near adequate to supply the needs of metro Vancouver. It can not refine dilbit, it is set up for conventional crude. Yes, the Harper government refused to give that small refinery priority in the pipeline - and yes, I think that was a dumb move. The larger pipeline capacity proposed will allow more gasoline etc to come from Alberta. http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/expert-says-columnist-suggestion-alberta-shut-fuel-pipeline-to-b-c-pretty-ruinous

"The existing pipeline pumps 300,000 barrels per day of oil, gasoline, jet fuel and other refined petroleum products from Alberta to the Burnaby waterfront. It is one of only a few pipelines in North America that uses “batch-shipping” techniques that allows it to ship multiple products."

3. Offset by what? Harnessing NDP hot air to drive a wind turbine?

4. Don't be obtuse. You should know that we are getting salvage tugs and vastly improve spill response capabilities for our Coast Guard. http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/11/07/canadas-ocean-protection-plan-world-leading-marine-safety-system-protects-canadas

5. Yes the rail threat is real. Ask Lac-Megantique. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/oil-by-rail-shipments-set-to-boom-study-finds-1.3110022 and http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/06/13-crude-by-rail

"A new market analysis by a Chicago-firm says that crude-by-rail shipments could be on the rebound due to pipeline congestion, specifically out of Canada"

"Shipments of petroleum-related products by rail could nearly triple in Western Canada and double in Eastern Canada over the next eight years.

That's the conclusion of the Canadian Energy Research Initiative, which has analyzed what commodities railways are carrying across Canada in a new report."

Finally - yes, a constitutional crisis. The government of BC does NOT have the constitutional right to block the pipeline. That has been settled and confirmed by the SCOC. So, the federal government has approved the pipeline. It is on an existing route. The BC government decides to over step its authority and block the pipeline? What remedy? Do the feds cut off all funding to BC? (Remember, BC income taxes are collected by the feds.). Do the feds take legal action to dismiss the government of BC? Would the LG be forced to dissolve the government and call an election?

Your parochial "pfft" tells me you don't think Canada and its constitution are important. For most of us they are very important.

[Dizzy1]

tesla is worth more than gm ford or dodge. does that not tell you anything ?

GM has a revenue of $166.3B. Ford has a revenue of $151.8B. Tesla has a revenue of $7B.

facts are your dirty little cesspool known as tarsands is finished . get with times or get left behind. choice is yours

You really need to refrain from using the term "facts" in your posts.

The real facts are that both Suncor and Imperial have more SAGD sites in the final stages of the drawing board and even some in the early stages of construction. Teck just announced the approval for a $20B open pit mine pinned to be operational by 2026 (which is completely supported by the local natives as per usual).

Sorry, MJ - this "cesspool" is going to be here pumping the oil out long after you and I are gone.