Questions to be asked of BCUC

[Smurf]

Besides the fact that the Geothermal being discussed in that article is an IPP type of business. How many on here want a whole bunch more expensive IPP reals. Remember geothermal will use the BC Hydro infrastructure, transmission lines etc so to take advantage of it we will have to pay BC Hydro rates. We know it will be extremely expensive for Hydro to buy the IPP power so guess what will happen to their rates once they are purchasing a large part of their power at high rates. The article also says for it to be viable at all it needs government investment. How much are you willing to increase your taxes and Hydro rates for geothermal when you can build site C which will pay for itself from beginning to end and probably last 3 times as long. I believe the article mentions a 30 year life span for many of the possible sites they found. There will be a time for geothermal but it should not be until the costs and other things involved are necessary. Why create expensive headaches we do not need.

[lasnomadas]

Ah, the old 'Smurf/hobbyguy tag team strikes again, and I am but one opponent. That's okay, I'll just take you guys on anyway. First , hobbyguy, you're splitting hairs again. Second, Smurf, there are reasons I take certain quotes from researched articles rather than just throwing the whole thing out there. One of the reasons is that most of the time the articles are outdated, and only a portion of them are still relevant. I pick the parts that are relevant today, and that part about the 30 year lifespan is no longer relevant. If a geothermal company is operating the plant properly, there is no reason why the well cannot operate indefinitely. (I'm sure you'll do your own research on that and get back to me if it disagrees with what I just wrote.)

[hobbyguy]

Actually las, I would love for you to research the LCOE analysis and various estimates in detail. You might find it elucidating.

I used Wikipedia for quick snapshot. The differences between LCOE costs of the three common forms of geothermal energy are very significant. Hydrothermal, Blind and EGS are very different in their requirements, costs to develop, risks etc.

You might find this interesting, as it points out that "there is no free lunch" even with the naturally occurring hydrothermal systems. Notice also that naturally occurring hydrothermal energy developments, despite having low LCOE, are very small output and would likely have to be IPPs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Japan

Interesting that Japan opened its first hydrothermal geothermal power facility in 1925.

[lasnomadas]

Isn't Wiki wonderful, hobbyguy? Yes, that bit about Japan was very interesting, but I found the US part most interesting. The Geysers area in CA wasn't even something I was aware of when I lived in CA. I must have driven by that area many times without even knowing it was there. But the ones in south-central CA I was very aware of because I lived so near to them that I could see the steam emitting from the one of their plants. They were close to the Salton Sea Wildlife Refuge, and I used to go down there and spend time watching all the migratory birds that resided there in the winter.

But I digress. Since CA has been so very successful in producing geothermal power, one would think that B.C., being closely related to CA in its relationship to good sources, would be an excellent candidate for that type of renewable energy. Borealis Geothermal has already begun two projects, one near Valemout, and the other near Terrace. If you've traveled around B.C. as much as I have, you'd know that there are many more viable sites, and certainly not all are situated in parks or tourist attractions.

Anyway, it's a good alternative to hydroelectric, compatible in price, far less destructive to farmland, wildlife habitat, and First Nations treaty lands, and produces fewer GHG emissions. Can we agree on that, at least?

[hobbyguy]

In the right context, HydroThermal and Blind geothermal are reasonable options.

I'm not sold on EGS geothermal. Nor are a lot of folks in the energy field. That's why EGS hasn't reached its highly touted potential. The induced seismicity is a real problem.

[lasnomadas]

Was that a 'yes'?

[Smurf]

In some cases they are probably reasonable options but if I read the information right most of the sites they found would have a life span of about 30 years. This means that you would need at least three plants built, used, dismantled and the land reclaimed to even come close to the lifespan of site C. That means much more expensive and probably much more environmentally unfriendly, producing all materials, building the plants and dismantling them would be an enormous amount of non friendly operations and garbage. Makes site C look even better.

[Urban Cowboy]

Aren't those plants also a much smaller scale than Site "C"?

As in how many required to replace that output?

[Smurf]

Yes they are much smaller. if memory serves me right from research given already on our threads related to site C there were no areas found where a very large powerhouse could be built. That means it would take a large number of them to make up for site C over say 100 years. It would mean tremendous distribution costs etc, even more so because much of it is in hard to reach unpopulated areas. It could almost become a nightmare. Looking at the overall picture for the long term site C gives us away more value for our dollar and in the end probably much less environmental harm.

[Urban Cowboy]

Agreed.

[maryjane48]

The British Columbia Utilities Commission is a regulatory agency of the Provincial Government, operating under and administering the Utilities Commission Act ("UCA"). The Commission is responsible for ensuring that customers receive safe, reliable and non-discriminatory energy services at fair rates from the utilities it regulates, that shareholders of these utilities are afforded a reasonable opportunity to earn a fair return on their invested capital, and that the competitive interests of B.C. businesses are not frustrated. It approves the construction of new facilities planned by utilities and their issuance of securities. The Commission's function is quasi-judicial and it has the power to make legally binding rulings. Decisions and Orders of the Commission may be appealed to the Court of Appeal on questions of law or jurisdiction.

The Commission also reviews energy-related matters referred to it by Cabinet. These inquiries usually involve public hearings, followed by a report and recommendations to Cabinet. In addition, under Part 7 of the Pipeline Act, the Commission establishes tolls and conditions of service for intraprovincial oil pipelines. The Commission also has responsibilities under the UCA for electricity transmission facilities and energy supply contracts, matters that are likely to become more active as the reorganization of the energy industry proceeds.





The Commission has been self-funded since 1988. Its costs are recovered primarily through a levy on the public utilities it regulates





http://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcu ... 5/index.do



that link there is good if you want to see how the bclibs through bchydro tried to raise rates for no other reason than to skim money like bunch of mobsters.this is why clark never used bcuc, she wasnt going to like what she was going to be told by a non partisan self funding commission.they can and do make binding rulings.

[Urban Cowboy]

Self funded, that's funny. They are paid for by us, through levies charged to our utility companies. That's like teachers saying they are self funded through the government.

They are NOT elected officials and can be trumped by those who are, and rightly so.

The problem with entities such as this, is that they need to always find fault with something, in order to justify their existence.

It's just an added bonus that it takes a lot of time and money for them to arrive at any conclusions.

[hobbyguy]

las - It is neither a yes or a no. I have been trying to get you to understand that all energy production types have their place, time and context, and that there is "no free lunch".

Naturally occurring hydrothermal geothermal energy is the lowest LCOE of the geothermal electricity generation types. The downsides are somewhat indicated in the article about Japan and geothermal. Natural hot springs often have cultural values that outweigh the small amounts of electricity that can be generated from them. I doubt we would consider messing up say, Harrison hot springs, or Radium hot springs, for the small amount of electricity generated.

The project proposed by Valemount utilizing a naturally occurring hot spring for direct geothermal - heating buildings - makes more sense. You can utilize the hot springs benefits to directly displace fossil fuels used to heat buildings by having the hot springs as a source for a community heating system.

Blind geothermal, the next most cost effective, involves finding underground rivers of hot water, and tapping into them. Again, the scale is small, but inless said underground river of hot water feeds a culturally significant site, go for it.

But both Hydrothermal from naturally occurring hot springs and Blind sources have minimal potential in the scale of modern electricity demands - in the BC context. They work a treat in Iceland - but Iceland as a country is only about the population of CORD.

The real potential in geothermal, in a Canadian context, is in geological stable areas where there is little risk of triggering earthquakes. That isn't BC sitting on the ring of fire. It is, in the context of Saskatchewan, a worthwhile project to explore the possibilities of EGS, which involves a lot of horizontal drilling and fracking, and constant injection wells, both o which are well documented as inducing seismicity.

So there it is las, there just is no black and white one size fits all solution. In the ludicrous position of me being in charge, I would approve EGS geothermal in Saskatchewan and disapprove of EGS in BC or south western Alberta.

By the way, one of the things that could develop in Saskatchewan with a complete win-win, is that, if EGS is successful in Saskatchewan, future developments be referred to aboriginal bands that are suffering from high unemployment - bringing badly needed wealth to areas that need it.

[mikest2]

The British Columbia Utilities Commission is a regulatory agency of the Provincial Government, operating under and administering the Utilities Commission Act ("UCA"). The Commission is responsible for ensuring that customers receive safe, reliable and non-discriminatory energy services at fair rates from the utilities it regulates, that shareholders of these utilities are afforded a reasonable opportunity to earn a fair return on their invested capital, and that the competitive interests of B.C. businesses are not frustrated. It approves the construction of new facilities planned by utilities and their issuance of securities. The Commission's function is quasi-judicial and it has the power to make legally binding rulings. Decisions and Orders of the Commission may be appealed to the Court of Appeal on questions of law or jurisdiction.

The Commission also reviews energy-related matters referred to it by Cabinet. These inquiries usually involve public hearings, followed by a report and recommendations to Cabinet. In addition, under Part 7 of the Pipeline Act, the Commission establishes tolls and conditions of service for intraprovincial oil pipelines. The Commission also has responsibilities under the UCA for electricity transmission facilities and energy supply contracts, matters that are likely to become more active as the reorganization of the energy industry proceeds.


http://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcu ... 5/index.do



that link there is good if you want to see how the bclibs through bchydro tried to raise rates for no other reason than to skim money like bunch of mobsters.this is why clark never used bcuc, she wasnt going to like what she was going to be told by a non partisan self funding commission.they can and do make binding rulings.

Read the application and decision carefully before you post, this is a typical application made by either BC Hydro or FortisBC, it's all about changing rate schedules and tariffs, and yes, when they change they generally go up. Just for fun you should check out the queue of applications FortisBC has in waiting.
I'd also like to commend you on the great spelling and grammer in your cut and paste from the BCUC website.