British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Prestige Mike » Mar 8th, 2018, 12:17 pm

gman313 wrote:
Prestige Mike wrote:Are we happy to be the only province in Canada paying MSP premiums? It is incredibly inefficient to collect revenue for medical services this way. I think it makes sense to abolish the MSP premiums, but in doing so the money must come from somewhere. The NDP has chosen to acquire this revenue through a payroll tax. Is this the best way to make up for lost MSP premium revenue? Personally I don't know. Where should that money come from then? Or do you guys and gals think the BC government should keep collecting their $0-$75 per MSP premiums per month from most adults living in BC?


incorporate into taxes so it is based on income. plenty of people don't work in BC why should employers be on the hook for everyone! what about rich retired people? they can damn well pay


This was my thought as well. Increasing BC income tax may have been the most efficient way to do this.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Prestige Mike » Mar 8th, 2018, 12:21 pm

rustled wrote:
Prestige Mike wrote:Are we happy to be the only province in Canada paying MSP premiums? It is incredibly inefficient to collect revenue for medical services this way. I think it makes sense to abolish the MSP premiums, but in doing so the money must come from somewhere. The NDP has chosen to acquire this revenue through a payroll tax. Is this the best way to make up for lost MSP premium revenue? Personally I don't know. Where should that money come from then? Or do you guys and gals think the BC government should keep collecting their $0-$75 per MSP premiums per month from most adults living in BC?

I'd suggest most people are happy to see some changes around how we do MSP in BC. A payroll tax may be part of the solution.

This scheme has been sprung on employers the way the HST was sprung on the electorate by Campbell. It was sudden and unexpected. For many, it's coming in conjunction with large additional costs such as the bigger-than-usual minimum wage hikes. And there's the problem in 2019 of charging both the 50% MPS and the new payroll tax.

The complaint isn't strictly about using a payroll tax. The complaint is about the surprise and uncertainty, and the discussion is about fairness and unintended consequences. That discussion should have happened before the surprise announcement.


Fair points, thought I suspect no matter where this revenue was made up it would have created controversy. Anytime there is shuffling of revenues where some people are undoubtedly going to have to pay more than they were before, there will be political backlash. I probably would have preferred the revenue coming from a raise in BC income tax, but that would have been just as controversial in my opinion.

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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 8th, 2018, 1:35 pm

Prestige Mike wrote:Are we happy to be the only province in Canada paying MSP premiums? It is incredibly inefficient to collect revenue for medical services this way. I think it makes sense to abolish the MSP premiums, but in doing so the money must come from somewhere. The NDP has chosen to acquire this revenue through a payroll tax. Is this the best way to make up for lost MSP premium revenue? Personally I don't know. Where should that money come from then? Or do you guys and gals think the BC government should keep collecting their $0-$75 per MSP premiums per month from most adults living in BC?


IF you do the actual calculations, as I have, the BC MSP premiums system as it was happens to be the best system overall for supporting the medical care for the poor and working poor. Every other system winds up making them pay more, either directly as income tax, or in indirect costs, as we are about to see in BC, where businesses will be passing on the taxation ripples on down to consumers, property taxes will go up, school taxes will go up, rents will go up accordingly - and in the end a single mom with 2 kids - who currently pays nothing - will pay a considerable amount.

Yes there was a complaint that a person making $50K paid the same as someone making $500K - but THAT could have been fixed. The BC NDP chose instead to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Gone_Fishin » Mar 8th, 2018, 1:38 pm

Prestige Mike wrote:This was my thought as well. Increasing BC income tax may have been the most efficient way to do this.


No, the best way to do this would be to decrease spending. But that's a foreign language to the tax-and-spend NDP.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 8th, 2018, 1:41 pm

rustled wrote:
Prestige Mike wrote:Are we happy to be the only province in Canada paying MSP premiums? It is incredibly inefficient to collect revenue for medical services this way. I think it makes sense to abolish the MSP premiums, but in doing so the money must come from somewhere. The NDP has chosen to acquire this revenue through a payroll tax. Is this the best way to make up for lost MSP premium revenue? Personally I don't know. Where should that money come from then? Or do you guys and gals think the BC government should keep collecting their $0-$75 per MSP premiums per month from most adults living in BC?

I'd suggest most people are happy to see some changes around how we do MSP in BC. A payroll tax may be part of the solution.

This scheme has been sprung on employers the way the HST was sprung on the electorate by Campbell. It was sudden and unexpected. For many, it's coming in conjunction with large additional costs such as the bigger-than-usual minimum wage hikes. And there's the problem in 2019 of charging both the 50% MPS and the new payroll tax.

The complaint isn't strictly about using a payroll tax. The complaint is about the surprise and uncertainty, and the discussion is about fairness and unintended consequences. That discussion should have happened before the surprise announcement.


Seems to me that waaay back, John Horgan said that the BC NDP would strike a commission to garner public input and make recommendations as how to best way to eliminate MSP premiums and recoup the lost revenue. Obviously the nutbar ideologues in the BC NDP didn't want that, and spineless Horgan just drifted along with the internal NDP gong show.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 8th, 2018, 1:51 pm

Gone_Fishin wrote:
Prestige Mike wrote:This was my thought as well. Increasing BC income tax may have been the most efficient way to do this.


No, the best way to do this would be to decrease spending. But that's a foreign language to the tax-and-spend NDP.


Actually, healthcare needs are on the rise. Just a fact of life with an aging population demographic.

You are correct that costs can be reduced. A proper chronic care system would take at least 13% of patients out of hospital care (at big time cost) and give them better care at about 1/4 of the cost. But unfortunately, nobody in politics gets to grandstand with a golden shovel about improving chronic care systems - they would rather stand in front of a new hospital wing and say, "see, we're fixing it" - when in fact they aren't. That 13% of patients (most of whom don't want to be in a hospital for their care) if removed to better suited chronic care facilities/home care etc. represents building and staffing 11 average size hospitals in BC (which we can't afford - and not enough doctors anyway). That freed up capacity would go a long way to solving the wait time problems.

But no, politicians want their "golden shovel" photo ops, more than they want to actually improve the system...
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Urbane » Mar 8th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Andrew Weaver is trying to have it both ways. He says he's only supporting the government "because we have to" but he sure seems to disagree with a lot of what the government is doing:


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#bcpoli Andrew Weaver on the rampage in the legislature: accuses New Democrats of making up tax policy on the fly. Still, Greens will vote for today's supply act "because we have to."
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby LordEd » Mar 8th, 2018, 5:34 pm

Of course they have to. They were bought but the cheque is in the mail.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Queen K » Mar 8th, 2018, 5:42 pm

Gone_Fishin wrote:
Prestige Mike wrote:This was my thought as well. Increasing BC income tax may have been the most efficient way to do this.


No, the best way to do this would be to decrease spending. But that's a foreign language to the tax-and-spend NDP.


I'm following up with Hobbyguy on this statement. If patients, whatever the percentage, 13 or 15 or 20, could afford homesupport services which are available to support them in their own homes, then it goes that we need home support workers, more clinicians and schedulers to make that happen. Ergo, more affordable access to Care Aide classes to get mature people in the door and on the way to a new employment opportunities. The days of hiring off the street were over a decade ago.

1. Education to be affordable ---> opportunities to get patients back on the home and supported there by new hires.

Less pressures on hospital floors, emergency rooms and long term care facilities.

I'd like to add, there is room for the "golden shovel" moment if community care can get larger and better equipped facilities from which professionals can operate out of. Difficult to attract professionals when the facilities are sub-par. And this is a healthcare area a great many people are retiring out of.

You're all going to hate this but the key to retaining Community Health Care workers is to recognize that their wages need to be at par with facility workers. I have never seen the retiree rate so high and the hiree rate so low. Oh and it's not hiring people, it's keeping them. So sorry GF, but spending in healthcare right now is key. Hobbyguy is right.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 8th, 2018, 6:41 pm

Queen K - we agree, there is a healthcare issue coming at us fast as the boomer tsunami turns grey.

I've been pushing the feds to get off their butts on the issue for 6 months. Part of what the group I am with is pushing for is for the feds to pony up with education grants for nurse practitioners, nurses, paramedics etc. because we are already too late to can that grey tsunami with increasing the supply of physicians.

The feds have made some changes to make home care more accessible - but not nearly enough. Home care for chronic illness patients, often folks with compromised immune systems, is not only better for them (happier, not exposed to the toxic soup of hospital bugs) but requires no "shovels" at all.

The only way out of the coming situation that we can afford is a team care approach for chronic care, a supervising manager physician and then nurses etc. doing the bulk of the care work. Leave the acute care where it is.

I just hope the BC NDP are aware and able to get a goin'. The Greens are certainly aware - but don't seem to be pushing it as a priority.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby flamingfingers » Mar 8th, 2018, 6:52 pm

nurses, etc. doing the bulk of the care work.


I certainly hope that your etc included Home Support Care workers - those valuable and experienced people who can attend the chronic care patients in their own home to provide physical and emotional support for these 'clients', evaluate the physical conditions in the home (cleanliness, supervision of medications, family interactions) and report them.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby hobbyguy » Mar 8th, 2018, 6:54 pm

flamingfingers wrote:
nurses, etc. doing the bulk of the care work.


I certainly hope that your etc included Home Support Care workers - those valuable and experienced people who can attend the chronic care patients in their own home to provide physical and emotional support for these 'clients', evaluate the physical conditions in the home (cleanliness, supervision of medications, family interactions) and report them.


Absolutely, it is going to need all hands on deck, including what help pharmacists, optometrists, whoever can give. Otherwise our hospitals will be overwhelmed.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Queen K » Mar 8th, 2018, 6:57 pm

The bulk of the care work at home is Home support workers and that is what I'm saying to GF is that education needs to be accessible and affordable to men and women to just get into employment.

The NDP has brought down some education costs right? Now they need to spend on getting the work place infrastructure done.
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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby flamingfingers » Mar 8th, 2018, 7:00 pm

The hospitals are already overwhelmed - and by a lot of chronic care patients (not necessarily 'oldsters') who could be transferred back home given a health care plan by doctors and nurses and carried out by Home Care workers!!
Why do people who fancy themselves "fiscal conservatives" not scream at hidden debt accumulated in the past dozen years? Or, do they only object to spending on social programs?

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Re: British Columbia's NDP Government: 2017

Postby Queen K » Mar 8th, 2018, 7:02 pm

That's right, that is who does the "bulk of the work", the home care worker in the home. An RN can see a client once a year or less or more depending, but we're there daily and sometimes up to four times in a day.

That is the point, Hobbyguy, you're not wrong about needing "all hands on deck" just about who is on the actual deck daily.
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