BC libs wont let Coulson work the fires

[OldIslander]

I recall that after the Penticton Garnet Fire in 1995, at which the Martin Mars bombers were deployed, the Kamloops Fire Center commissioned a study as to their effectiveness. I only recall hearing about this (22 years ago...) through a source I respected -– I didn’t read the report, and couldn’t find it, so take this with a grain of salt.

The weather during the Penticton fire was typically hot and dry. In the report, they calculated the amount of water dropped from the Mars, distance to the ground, and the amount of water lost due to rapid evaporation. They found that so much water evaporated while falling to he ground, that not enough landed to sufficiently soak the upper duff layer, to do much good. That was why they eventually went to chemical retardants, to help with this issue. Their conclusion was that it would be cheaper and about as effective, to dump dollar bills out of a normal aircraft, than hire the Mars to dump water only (under the specific circumstances of this fire...).

The Mars were there as much for PR, as to actually fight the fires...

I also recall hearing that Wayne Colson over the years, made himself highly unpopular with both the BC Forest Service and the BC Libs through a range of actions. A cynical person might wonder how much of the following is true from a Laila Yuile post in 2014.

https://lailayuile.com/2014/07/21/why-exactly-is-the-mars-bomber-sitting-idle/

[maryjane48]

forget the mars . wayne has the highest tech choppers and c130 air tankers . he has saved more lives in callifornia than any other company in bc will for next 100 years . facts vs f8ction

[Urbane]

^^ And we need to remember that the Mars bomber that could be used in BC is out of action until sometime in August because of a mishap in Oshkosh. John Rustad, who will be leaving his post on Tuesday, cited the bomber being out of action currently and seemed to be leaving the door open to having it available on standby as the government did two years ago. It won't be his decision though so we'll see what the new minister decides once the bomber is repaired.

[Hurtlander]

I also recall hearing that Wayne Colson over the years, made himself highly unpopular with both the BC Forest Service and the BC Libs through a range of actions. A cynical person might wonder how much of the following is true from a Laila Yuile post in 2014.

https://lailayuile.com/2014/07/21/why-exactly-is-the-mars-bomber-sitting-idle/

The sad reality is that because Wayne Coulson publicly voiced he personal opinion that he disagrees with certain aspects of the BC liberal forestry policy, the vindictive BC liberals have punished Coulson Air Tanker services by outright refusing to use any of their other types of very useful, effective and efficient fire fighting aircraft.. Coulsons other aircraft are in demand everywhere else on the planet except BC...the vindictive liberals would rather bring in aircraft from out of province than hire a company that isn't a BC liberal supporter...that's just so disgusting on so many levels, especially now during an outright provincial state of emergency. Political differences should be set aside considering the circumstances, but apparently not in the world of BC liberals and their staunchest supporters.

[lasnomadas]

And in the meantime, Coulson has other fire-fighting aircraft that can be deployed. BTW, that was a very informative link to Laila Yuile's blog back in 2014. A must read for everyone on this forum. The comments thereto were also enlightening.

One of my family members worked that Penticton fire in 1995 and gave a totally different account than the one that was related to Oldislander. So I guess we can debate the effectiveness of the Martin Mars until the cows come home with no obvious winners or losers.

[Urban Cowboy]

I also recall hearing that Wayne Colson over the years, made himself highly unpopular with both the BC Forest Service and the BC Libs through a range of actions. A cynical person might wonder how much of the following is true from a Laila Yuile post in 2014.

https://lailayuile.com/2014/07/21/why-exactly-is-the-mars-bomber-sitting-idle/

The sad reality is that because Wayne Coulson publicly voiced he personal opinion that he disagrees with certain aspects of the BC liberal forestry policy, the vindictive BC liberals have punished Coulson Air Tanker services by outright refusing to use any of their other types of very useful, effective and efficient fire fighting aircraft.. Coulsons other aircraft are in demand everywhere else on the planet except BC...the vindictive liberals would rather bring in aircraft from out of province than hire a company that isn't a BC liberal supporter...that's just so disgusting on so many levels, especially now during an outright provincial state of emergency. Political differences should be set aside considering the circumstances, but apparently not in the world of BC liberals and their staunchest supporters.

Yet despite your diatribe, Horgan is completely satisfied with how the fire fighting effort is progressing. Go figure.

[seewood]

The Martin Mars aircraft were initially purchased by a consortium of forest companies on Van. Island in the late 50's . MacMillam Bloedel, Weyerhaeuser, BCFP all chipped in and formed a company, Flying Tankers I believe it was called. These aircraft were to provide protection from fires to the vast timber holdings these companies held( island and coast). From accidents and fire, only two are left and only one for fire fighting duties. If a large straight water source is available they can scoop up a lot of water. In the interior and air temps are around 33-38 deg C the performance of those piston engines require even longer lakes to take off. Coast usually does not have those high temps and a wind is usually present that helps. The ministry several years ago converted to all turbine engine aircraft for simplicity and cost in using jet-A instead of having to also provide expensive 101? Av-gas. I can't remember the last time I saw a DC -6 dropping retardant.
The Mars might still have it's place in fighting fires but the people that have studied this large vs small vs medium aircraft in the fire fighting realm have made a decision based on facts I would suggest, that in most cases in the interior the Mars is expensive for what it does and there are enough smaller aircraft that are more mobile that can easily match or exceed the amount of water dropped over time. I don't want to pre-judge , but the ones I hear saying the Mars should be used sound like they might be a bit more "mature" and because the Mars was the end all in the past before the modern planes have come on line, memory still serves that they are still the end all. Yes I agree they can drop lots of water but not as much as several of the smaller planes over a period of time in most instances.
In the US we might have seen clips of a DC-10 dropping retardant....now runway length is an issue....let alone a bird dog that can keep up. ( Surplus CF-18's)
When the Mars becomes available, perhaps the province might give it a fire where a suitable water source is nearby for a couple of weeks and then send it off to the museum or whatever Coulson was going to do with it.

[alfred2]

And in the meantime, Coulson has other fire-fighting aircraft that can be deployed. BTW, that was a very informative link to Laila Yuile's blog back in 2014. A must read for everyone on this forum. The comments thereto were also enlightening.

One of my family members worked that Penticton fire in 1995 and gave a totally different account than the one that was related to Oldislander. So I guess we can debate the effectiveness of the Martin Mars until the cows come home with no obvious winners or losers.

Why the push have your shares dropped in price? These planes are not effective as proven by experts that are fighting fires,you come across as some real hatred for people that know what they are doing. WHY?

[Dizzy1]

One of my family members worked that Penticton fire in 1995 and gave a totally different account than the one that was related to Oldislander.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Interesting how Coulson seems to start the same discussions every year. Alberta didn't give them a contract last year either, yet I'm sure that thats somehow the BCLIbs fault as well.

Personally, being the Av Geek I am, I'd love to see that gorgeous plane in action in BC again - but my emotions don't outweigh effectiveness of fire fighting tactics.

[Urbane]

Political differences should be set aside considering the circumstances, but apparently not in the world of BC liberals and their staunchest supporters.

And yet an NDP poster on here suggests that perhaps "Christy" is allowing the fires to burn, putting people and property at risk, to make Horgan look bad and you accuse Liberal supporters of playing politics! That's rich. The whole point of this thread is political. Just look at the title! To Horgan's credit, he's not playing politics with the fire. Nor is Clark and good for them.

[lasnomadas]

And yet you and your attack dogs can't just let it be, can you? It's so obvious that neither the pro-Mars nor the anti-Mars can win this debate. We should call a truce until we find out if the Mars will be put back in action when it's ready to work again.

[Dizzy1]

And yet you and your attack dogs can't just let it be, can you? It's so obvious that neither the pro-Mars nor the anti-Mars can win this debate. We should call a truce until we find out if the Mars will be put back in action when it's ready to work again.

Oh come on now, this thread has nothing to do with the Mars - its purely another Christy Witch Hunt from the get go.

[ferri]

[Urban Cowboy]

:topic:

As in Christy witch hunt?

It's hard to tell these days what's what with all the misleading titles.

[OldIslander]

If you’re talking about Coulson, you have to talk about the Mars. Up until a year or so ago, when it came to fighting fires, Coulson’s operation was a one-trick pony – the Martin Mars water bomber. He obviously likes the business, and is investing millions in new aircraft to replace the Mars.

I have no ax to grind here, business-wise or politically. But there is another problem with the Mars. The last year it flew on fires, it lost a few days towards the end because its pilot was sick. It’s understandably difficult to find properly accredited, specialized pilots to fly them. And with only one aircraft, you still need two or three pilots (and flight engineers), to ensure you always have someone on standby, ready to go at a moment’s notice. And it’s part-time work – you can’t keep them all on the payroll, when they’re only operational, 3 or 4 months per year.

But I love them too – I’ve seen them take off/land hundreds of times on Sproat Lake. I’ve been all around them in little boats. I toured one a few years ago. I’ve met one of the pilots. Over the years, I’ve watched them flying out in the bush, fighting several different fires. They are a spectacular testament to the ingenuity of the engineers who designed them, and the folks who’ve kept them flying for 70 plus years. But as ‘seewood’ and others have alluded to -- as will happen to every piece of technological machinery ever built -- they have become pretty much obsolete.

It’s time to let them go.