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Liberals supply speaker

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby rustled » Sep 11th, 2017, 10:30 am

Cactusflower wrote:If you had indeed read Randy's entire letter, you wouldn't still maintain that what he did as unethical and deceitful. It's very obvious why he didn't inform the party of his intentions beforehand. They would have kicked him out before he was able to offer to take the Speaker position. Put yourself in Plecas' shoes for a moment. What would you have done?

British Columbians need a Speaker who has proven himself over the years to be an honourable man. That man is Darryl Plecas, and IMHO, his constituents voted for him, not because he was a BC Liberal, but because they knew he would represent them with honesty and integrity. My only question is, will he be able to represent them still, or must there be another taxpayer-funded by-election?

Yes, it does seem obvious, doesn't it? Hawes has done a good job of showing us why Plecas chose to be deceitful. Still, that was Plecas's choice.

I'd like to think I would have done the honourable thing, and tried to make a solid case for my position to get what I wanted without deceiving people who trusted me. If I believed accepting the position of Speaker truly was the best way forward for my constituents, for my riding association, for my party, and for the people of B.C., I should believe I can make this clear to those who trust me. One would think his experience would have helped him make his case far more convincingly than I could hope to make mine.

And yes, based on his history, one would see Plecas as a man of honour and integrity, well worthy of the Speaker's chair. So had he made a solid case for his choice to let his name stand, and been booted for it, we'd be discussing whether or not the Liberal party or his riding association did the wrong thing in blocking him, perhaps musing about how stupid they were for not recognizing an opportunity to present themselves in a more cooperative light.

Instead, we're discussing Plecas's choice to be deceitful rather than risking losing the position he wanted to accept. It is disappointing when good people do the wrong thing, and it's disappointingly common in politics. As Leifer so aptly put it:
This type of behavior drives voter apathy and general distrust in our elected officials.

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby GordonH » Sep 11th, 2017, 10:56 am

impo anytime a MLA (or MP's) either crosses the floor or is removed from political party. To be fair to voters who elected that person to be there MLA or MP, there should a by-election called for that riding.
Because those who voted did so for that candidate of the political party he/she was part of, not for were he/she actually ended up as.

In this case at soonest possible time there should be a by-election in Mr. Plecas riding, if he wins then business in legislature can continue. If not a new speaker will be needed.

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby rustled » Sep 11th, 2017, 11:04 am

GordonH wrote:impo anytime a MLA (or MP's) either crosses the floor or is removed from political party. To be fair to voters who elected that person to be there MLA or MP, there should a by-election called for that riding.
Because those who voted did so for that candidate of the political party he/she was part of, not for were he/she actually ended up as.

In this case at soonest possible time there should be a by-election in Mr. Plecas riding, if he wins then business in legislature can continue. If not a new speaker will be needed.

That may be the best solution.

In this instance, reading Plecas's background, it seems he has championed political ideology that doesn't actually align all that well with the BC Liberals. Perhaps quite a few people voted for him, personally, and not "for" the BC Liberals.

If this is the case, he may be able to win as an independent.

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby flamingfingers » Sep 11th, 2017, 11:30 am

I really cannot understand why all the kerfuffle about Plecas when only a month ago, Christy Clark not only abandoned her role as premier but dropped her Westside constituents like a bag of doggie-doo despite her numerous statements that she would serve in opposition as BC Liberal leader, & etc. By doing this, SHE helped the alliance out by 1 seat count.

Nobody screamed 'betrayal', 'untrustworthy', 'she lied'.....

go figure....
Why do people who fancy themselves "fiscal conservatives" not scream at hidden debt accumulated in the past dozen years? Or, do they only object to spending on social programs?

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby Cactusflower » Sep 11th, 2017, 11:40 am

I was just reading a bit of history, and discovered that NDP MLA for North Cariboo, Bob Simpson, was fired from the caucus in 2010 and continued on as North Cariboo MLA in an Independent capacity until the 2013 election. So I guess that sets a precedent, and Mr. Plecas will be able to represent his constituents as an Independent until 2021.
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby flamingfingers » Sep 11th, 2017, 11:59 am

All of the Greens - Weaver, Olsen, Furstenau are designated as Independents. Vicki Huntington was an independent for YEARS and managed to represent her constituents most satisfactorily.

It's time to get rid of ALL political parties and vote Independents in every riding in BC!!
Why do people who fancy themselves "fiscal conservatives" not scream at hidden debt accumulated in the past dozen years? Or, do they only object to spending on social programs?

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby GordonH » Sep 11th, 2017, 12:03 pm

Cactusflower wrote:I was just reading a bit of history, and discovered that NDP MLA for North Cariboo, Bob Simpson, was fired from the caucus in 2010 and continued on as North Cariboo MLA in an Independent capacity until the 2013 election. So I guess that sets a precedent, and Mr. Plecas will be able to represent his constituents as an Independent until 2021.


Others have both Federally & Provincially either crossed the floor or became independents (in some cases removed from caucus, over the years).
As I see it that was not what those who voted in each of ridings actually placed their mark on ballot asking for or wanted.
So each time this happens there should be by-election, so the voters in that riding can choose.

Mr. Plecas Abbotsford South riding May 2017 election:
Liberals 11,673
NDP 6,297
Greens 3,338

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby Cactusflower » Sep 11th, 2017, 12:25 pm

In a perfect world, constituents would vote for the person, not the party, who represents their riding. How do you know that wasn't the case in Abbotsford South in May 2017?
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby GordonH » Sep 11th, 2017, 12:31 pm

Cactusflower wrote:In a perfect world, constituents would vote for the person, not the party, who represents their riding. How do you know that wasn't the case in Abbotsford South in May 2017?


Yes you correct, just as by voting for Mr. Plecas the person. The voter(s) are also voting for the Party Mr. Plecas will be representing.
If Mr. Plecas wanted to be an Independent he should have gone under the Independent banner for May election.

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby rustled » Sep 11th, 2017, 12:36 pm

flamingfingers wrote:I really cannot understand why all the kerfuffle about Plecas when only a month ago, Christy Clark not only abandoned her role as premier but dropped her Westside constituents like a bag of doggie-doo despite her numerous statements that she would serve in opposition as BC Liberal leader, & etc. By doing this, SHE helped the alliance out by 1 seat count.

Nobody screamed 'betrayal', 'untrustworthy', 'she lied'.....

go figure....

My goodness, I thought there were quite a few people saying just that. But this isn't about Clark, or about whether or not Clark's actions constituted a betrayal, or showed a lack of trustworthiness, or a willingness to lie for political or personal gain. It is about our new Speaker, and whether or not his actions constituted a betrayal or showed a lack of trustworthiness or a willingness to lie for political or personal gain.

I found the "before" and "after" aspects of this interesting. Before last Friday,
Plecas’s sudden interest in the job came just two months after he publicly said he’d been approached and had flatly turned down the offers.
“The notion of us (the Liberals) putting up someone for Speaker under the current circumstances is ridiculous,” Plecas told columnist Mike Smyth at the time. “In fact, I would go further to say that it would be an outright manipulation of the democratic process.”

He also told the Abbotsford News at the time such a move would be “very disrespectful of me” and “very dishonourable.”

http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/m ... me-speaker

After:
But Plecas insisted the only reason he earlier said he wouldn’t take the job is because that’s what the Liberal party brass told him to say.

“That wasn’t really from me — that was from the premier’s office,” Plecas said....

http://theprovince.com/news/bc-politics ... eakers-job

So what do we believe about him, that he is a highly principled man who didn't believe what he was saying and finally found the courage to stand up and say so to his oppressors, not by being upfront with them, but by going behind them to "do the right thing" for the good of all? Perhaps. But I tend to think the crux of it may be here:
...The Speaker is the non-voting, non-partisan referee of the legislature and Plecas — a second-term MLA and former criminology professor from Abbotsford — said it’s a job he always wanted.

“The Speaker’s job is an incredibly honourable role,” he said. “If somebody said to me, ‘What is the single best role a person could have as an MLA, especially for somebody from my background?’ That would be it.”

He saw the opportunity to have the job he always wanted. He didn't stand up to his party, go public with his intentions, or explain to his riding association why it was in anyone else's best interest for him to take the job. It certainly appears he did what he had to do to make sure he got the job he had always wanted. It appears he may have allowed that "want" to define him.

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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby GordonH » Sep 11th, 2017, 12:39 pm

Each person in every riding be it Provincially of Federally, seeks the nomination by the Political Party of choice (this includes being an Independent).
Once the election is called voters can choose by the person or by the Party/Independent, those choosing by the person must also accept the party that person is running for/represent.
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby rustled » Sep 11th, 2017, 1:12 pm

flamingfingers wrote:All of the Greens - Weaver, Olsen, Furstenau are designated as Independents. Vicki Huntington was an independent for YEARS and managed to represent her constituents most satisfactorily.

It's time to get rid of ALL political parties and vote Independents in every riding in BC!!

I used to believe this, too, using the government of the NWT as an example of how it could be done, thinking this would mean everyone cooperated for the good of all.

But watching all the backroom power plays over the past few years, I no longer think this is a good idea at all. I think we'd see more corruption, more deceit, less transparency than we're already dealing with.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but IMO it won't come unless we all expect better from the whole lot of them.

And from ourselves. Kicking out the HST because we're PO'd about how it was introduced didn't show we're capable of setting aside our emotions long enough to make good decisions and take care of each other.
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby Old Techie » Sep 11th, 2017, 1:38 pm

rustled wrote:He saw the opportunity to have the job he always wanted. He didn't stand up to his party, go public with his intentions, or explain to his riding association why it was in anyone else's best interest for him to take the job. It certainly appears he did what he had to do to make sure he got the job he had always wanted. It appears he may have allowed that "want" to define him.


Not to mention the way he obtained it being anything but honorable, so there goes that bubble. :biggrin:

The gift for conning himself might be useful at some point though.
"Fools multiply when wise men are silent!" - Nelson Mandela
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby rustled » Sep 11th, 2017, 2:27 pm

It's difficult not to be cynical, isn't it? I wonder how he will feel once the euphoria wears off.

As to what this means for the rest of us, I thought this summed it up well:
“The best that one could hope for, and what’s appropriate to hope for, is that he understands his job now is to serve the institutional interests of the legislature as a whole,” said Cameron, the UBC political scientist.

“If he does that — and it is a remarkably important and edifying role for him to play — he’ll go down in history, potentially.”
http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/m ... me-speaker

He has a tough row to hoe, making sure history sees him as positively as would have done, had he achieved his goal with the honesty and integrity for which he was previously admired, or even if he had approached it honestly and failed in the attempt.
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Re: Liberals supply speaker

Postby Old Techie » Sep 11th, 2017, 3:03 pm

He's going to be remembered alright, but it will be solely for how he got the job, not how he'll perform it.
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