BCTF is not happy

Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby erinmore3775 » Dec 11th, 2017, 10:34 am

The current problems in the education system are not related to happiness. They are related directly to poor and illegal decisions made over the past years by the previous government. Those decisions related to class size and composition were found to be illegal by the SCOC. Accept that. Now it is time to move on. It is time to find solutions.
The oversites and lack of support for students and teachers cannot be undone. However, changes can be made to correct the situation starting in December of 2016. At that time and through until their demise, the previous government did little to correct the situation.
They did recognize that more teachers would be needed. Yet they did not recognize that more classrooms would be needed. For years, parents and Boards of Education had been pointing out that there was a lack of funding and support for BC's education system. While results remained good, parents and Boards recognized that you could not run the system on the backs of its professional employees forever. They noticed that there were fewer new teachers in the system and those education graduates preferred to take positions in other fields or outside the province.
Then in the spring and summer of this year when new teachers had to be hired. There was a shortage. Likewise, there was a shortage of classrooms.While this problem has to be solved by the present government, it was not created by them. It was created by the ideological based and illegal decisions made by the previous government. Currently, special needs and grey area students are bearing the brunt of this problem. To create the classrooms with the required numbers and composition, their services and support are being reduced.
The solution is not to return the class size and composition of 30 years ago. That solution would only be possible if society as a whole could turn back the clock on family values, the value of education, and societal respect and responsibility. That can only happen in the movies. We cannot undo the past. We can only support changes for the future.
Unfortunately, remediating the wrongs of the past is going to cost money. Those expenses were mandated by the SCOC to be implemented through a negotiated process that would mirror was illegally removed. If you want to blame somebody, blame the people who caused the problem the previous government. They enacted the legislation. Unfortunately, the resulting unhappiness will be born by the taxpayers of BC. The remediation is going to cost all of us in higher taxes, part of the decision to balance past budgets on the backs of the education and health systems and by dividends from BC Hydro and ICBC.
"Justice will not come until those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are injured."
- Thucydides, Greek Philosopher

"You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give." - Winston Churchill

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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 11th, 2017, 1:35 pm

erinmore - I have to disagree.

This whole mess started with a complete sell out and abrogation by the 1990s NDP and devious Dix. The BCTF owned them.

The management of the education is something WE elect representatives to do. WE do NOT elect the lunatic BCTF union leadership.

How is that people will get really upset about "captive regulation" - like oil executives sitting on NEB panels - and yet NOT see that the 1990s NDP handed "captive regulation" to the BCTF lunatic leadership.

The SCOC decision is merely a reflection of a technically flawed and impatient effort by the BC Liberals, and Christy Clark in particular, to right that wrong. It does NOT say that the class size issue discussion should go one way or the other.

It is entirely WRONG that the 1990s BC NDP, and Adrian Dix in particular, abrogated their responsibilities to the people of BC.

Think about this too: the average teacher takes 11 sick days per year. 11! in a less than 10 month work cycle. There is definitively something wrong with that, and I guarantee that the BCTF is largely responsible.

If teachers had the same absenteeism rate as real world people, then the so called shortage of teachers wouldn't be there. And the system would be better and continuity of instruction would be far better for students.
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 11th, 2017, 1:51 pm

hobbyguy wrote:erinmore - I have to disagree.

This whole mess started with a complete sell out and abrogation by the 1990s NDP and devious Dix. The BCTF owned them.

The management of the education is something WE elect representatives to do. WE do NOT elect the lunatic BCTF union leadership.

How is that people will get really upset about "captive regulation" - like oil executives sitting on NEB panels - and yet NOT see that the 1990s NDP handed "captive regulation" to the BCTF lunatic leadership.

The SCOC decision is merely a reflection of a technically flawed and impatient effort by the BC Liberals, and Christy Clark in particular, to right that wrong. It does NOT say that the class size issue discussion should go one way or the other.

It is entirely WRONG that the 1990s BC NDP, and Adrian Dix in particular, abrogated their responsibilities to the people of BC.

Think about this too: the average teacher takes 11 sick days per year. 11! in a less than 10 month work cycle. There is definitively something wrong with that, and I guarantee that the BCTF is largely responsible.

If teachers had the same absenteeism rate as real world people, then the so called shortage of teachers wouldn't be there. And the system would be better and continuity of instruction would be far better for students.

The scoc ruled its done now with john giving site c the go ahead he has to make amends .i expect big raiee for teachers and every other union he can
The fun just started and will end with premier weaver next election
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby erinmore3775 » Dec 11th, 2017, 4:17 pm

HG, the previous government had over 10 years to correct the "sell out and abrogation by the 1990s NDP and devious Dix." They chose "a technically flawed and impatient effort by the BC Liberals, and Christy Clark in particular, to right that wrong." They chose instead to denigrate and disparage the teachers of this province and their union. They chose too to strangle the Boards of Education across this province in an ideologically motivated set of policies that meant that real-world costs were met with fantasy world provincial budget allocations. When every Board in the Province screams that they do not have enough money to deliver programs because of downloading and cutbacks there is something very wrong.
It is too easy to blame NDP government of the 90's for the problems in education today. However, the real architects of today's problems are the Education Ministers and the Premiers of the previous governments and their hamfisted desire to balance their budgets on the backs of Education, Health, ICBC, and BC Hydro. Then there is their total failure to admit that they technically flawed and wrong in the negotiation policies related to class size and composition. Those facts were recognized by the SCOC.Perhaps I would have more respect for the current members of the Opposition and the Green Members in the legislature if they offered alternatives to the current policies and programs, which the current government has put in place to solve the class size and composition dilemma. Unfortunately, your solution of returning to the classrooms of the 60's, 70's or 80's are not options. The world and BC society has changed a lot since then. Businesses who use 20 or 30-year-old marketing and sales practices do not survive in today's world. Neither will the classrooms of 20 or 30 years ago provide the educational environments necessary to educated today's children.
"Justice will not come until those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are injured."
- Thucydides, Greek Philosopher

"You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give." - Winston Churchill

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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 11th, 2017, 5:25 pm

erinmore, you will note that I am equally upset with the poor management of the issue by the BC Liberals. This is NOT about teachers, it is about the entire situation with a BCTF union that is off the rails and always has been.

The BCTF is dominated by a lunatic clique that just keeps around, and around and nothing ever gets better.

1) The BCTF has no right to control our education system. Period. WE don't vote for them, THEY do not represent US.
2) The 1990s NDP back room sell out to the BCTF was atrocious, corrupt, and absolutely indefensible. It was a part of the reason the NDP got dumped 77-2.
3) The manner in which the BC Liberals, and Christy Clark, went about undoing that corrupt back room deal was, as I said, impatient and flawed. You can not correct a major "wrong" by committing a minor "wrong".

The correct way would have required more courage than most politicians have - simply wait out the contract, refuse to accept any settlement that includes that clause, a lengthy strike. Legislate them back to work. Continue to refuse to accept any settlement with that clause.

The BCTF NEVER negotiates in good faith. They have only one "agreement" to show, regardless of party in power - the "Owelympics" giveaway contract.

IF the BCTF was negotiated in good faith, then the sick days provisions would have long been changed so that teachers don't lose financially if they don't take sick days. I personally have negotiated with other unions and been able to avoid that trap. It wasn't difficult.

Notice that the BCTF is CONSTANTLY in the news and constantly seeking news coverage to make mountains out of molehills. They want an atmosphere of hysteria, fear and division surrounding the management of the public school system. It covers up the many sins of the BCTF brass, including the fact that they are working against the best interest of students and teachers.

The BCTF is a rogue organization, and they need to have their influence diminished.
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 11th, 2017, 5:58 pm

The scoc ruled and took.less than a,hour to rule.the law,is,clear .its over move on
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 11th, 2017, 8:28 pm

maryjane48 wrote:The scoc ruled and took.less than a,hour to rule.the law,is,clear .its over move on


The SCOC ruled on the technicality that the BC Liberals used the wrong process, not on the issue.

Do you not understand the difference between process and result? The Liberals messed up the process, the result - the rotten back room Dixian NDP abrogation of duty and sell out of our education to the lunatic leadership clique at the BCTF remains, and needs to be fixed.

That means a lengthy BCTF strike, unless the membership comes to its senses and revolts and does not give the BCTF a strike mandate. The BCTF lets teachers down the same way yer pal Johnny let you down [icon_lol2.gif]
Dimples - "just not ready"

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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 11th, 2017, 9:27 pm

It wont ever be revisited .its over snd expect big raises to every real union .your little dam is going to cost you big time :130:
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 11th, 2017, 10:52 pm

Expect more raises for teachers :cuss: expect more raises for. Lots folks except corrupt bclibs
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby erinmore3775 » Dec 12th, 2017, 9:56 am

It has been said in this forum that the Supreme Court of Canda ruled for the plaintiffs in "British Columbia Teachers' Federation, on behalf of all members of the British Columbia Teachers' Federation v. Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the Province of British Columbia" based on a technicality. That is incorrect.

The key arguments were: "Charter of Rights – Constitutional law – Freedom of association – Right to collective bargaining – Prohibition of collective bargaining on certain topic – Law declared unconstitutional and invalid"

http://www.scc-csc.ca/case-dossier/info/sum-som-eng.aspx?cas=36500

In 2002, the government of the day in the province of British Columbia passed the Education Flexibility and Choice Act, S.B.C. 2002 and amended it in 2004. These acts and amendments specifically limited the bargaining rights of the BCTF. A lengthy Court process began leading to a SCOC decision that took only a few hours to render. While some may consider the arbitrary removal of Charter Rights of citizens by a provincial government to be a "technicality," I do not. Neither did the SCOC. Those carefully reading of the legislation of 2002, 2004, and 2012 and placing it in the political context of the time would see that the government of the time was specifically trying to curtail the bargaining rights of a portion of its citizens. The rights removed by the legislation had been fairly negotiated and agreed to by all signators of the agreements. It was capricious and illegal for the government of the time to arbitrarily remove those rights. Furthermore, the SCOC ordered that through mutual and considered negotiations the Province and its teachers, through their bargaining unit the BCTF, must develop a plan and process that makes the situation whole.

The process of making whole was not begun until late in the spring of 2017. Thus the problems faced by students, parents, teachers, and Boards continuing through the 2017/2018 school year. Students, parents, teachers, and Boards are rightfully pointing out the shortfalls of the previous government in their efforts to make whole as required by the SCOC. Unfortunately, these vocal complaints are drowned out by the deafening silence of the Members of the Opposition on these issues; a fair acknowledgement that it was their governments that created the problem and failed to remediate the situation in a timely manner. While some may consider the current class size and composition problems caused by a simply by a legislative technicality, it was the capricious, vindictive, ideological policies and legislation enacted by the previous government caused the problem.
"Justice will not come until those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are injured."
- Thucydides, Greek Philosopher

"You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give." - Winston Churchill

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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby hobbyguy » Dec 12th, 2017, 1:19 pm

Yup, nothing to do with the problem the Liberals were trying to solve. The SCOC ruling simply says they violated the process rules. That was impatient and reckless.

The problem, a rogue BCTF union, is still there.

Every other public service union in BC has mostly negotiated in good faith. They get good wages, good pensions, good working conditions etc. It is very telling that the BCTF rogue union puts teachers out on strike at every possible opportunity. The BCTF has no intention of bargaining in good faith with any government.

The BCTF are also big time political advertisers and big seekers of media attention as they gin up controversy and exaggerate.

The BCTF has no right whatsoever to manage the education system. We don't elect them, they are not accountable to us. They are entirely undemocratic. Time to sit them out and restore some sense in our education system management.

That doesn't mean that there is not a controversy over class size. There is an optimum class size, and that's what we elect representatives to make a decision on - not a bunch of union hack wannabe pols like the BCTF. The BCTF tarnishes the reputations o teachers.
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby maryjane48 » Dec 12th, 2017, 1:26 pm

Lets, surmise shall we

Teachers. People of bc get a win. Bclibs and corruption lost


Canada’s highest court, which often takes several months to deliver a decision, took only a 20-minute recess after hearing legal arguments before delivering a 7-2 decision in favour of the union

20 minutes [icon_lol2.gif]

The case hinges on whether pre-legislative consultation can be a replacement for good faith collective bargaining. Donald, the dissenting judge, said the consultation was relevant, but he agreed with Justice Griffin’s 2014 judgment that the B.C. government had failed to consult in good faith.


If you dont bargain in good faith you are breaking canadian labour laws,.

Its simple to understand for moral folks. Impossible to comprehend for moraly corrupt

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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby alanjh595 » Dec 12th, 2017, 4:00 pm

Let's review All of the information back to 2002 when it all began, and use the appropriate quote features that this forum has to offer instead of just "cherry picking" from a one year old decision, shall we?

Here goes. (Published on: November 10, 2016)
The B.C. government will likely have to hire hundreds of teachers and spend between $250 million and $300 million more each year on education, after the dramatic win by B.C. teachers in the Supreme Court of Canada on Thursday.

The estimate comes from B.C. Teachers’ Federation president Glen Hansman at the end of a union legal battle that began in 2002.

“We’re elated, this has been a long journey,” Hansman said.

Canada’s highest court, which often takes several months to deliver a decision, took only a 20-minute recess after hearing legal arguments before delivering a 7-2 decision in favour of the union.

The decision immediately restored clauses deleted from the teachers contract by the Liberal government of Gordon Campbell in 2002 dealing with class size, the number of special needs students who can be in a class and the number of specialist teachers required in schools.


The government touched off the legal battle in 2002 by passing legislation that stripped those provisions from the teachers’ contract and passed a law denying teachers the right to bargain those issues.

Thursday’s decision overturned the B.C. Court of Appeal’s 2015 ruling in favour of the provincial government, and restored the original decision in the union’s favour by B.C. Supreme Court Justice Susan Griffin.

Hansman said it could take some time to restore class sizes to pre-2002 levels because the union has lost the equivalent of 3,500 full-time positions over the past 15 years.

But he said the clauses should be restored as soon as possible.

“The province has got the money to pay for this,” Hansman said.

He said the provincial government has a $1-billion contingency in its budget, which specifically named the teachers’ case as a possible use for some of the money.

The case has huge implications for B.C.’s education system, with affidavits submitted to the B.C. Court of Appeal in 2014 by school superintendents estimating thousands of teachers would need to be hired and more classroom space would need to be found to restore the class size and composition rules.

In Surrey alone, the restoration of the clauses would cost an estimated $40 million a year. Surrey represents about 10 per cent of the entire provincial education system.

In 2014, superintendents’ association estimated it would cost more than $1 billion a year to return to 2002 service levels.

Changes may not take effect immediately. The teachers’ contract, which was arrived at after a six-week strike in 2014, includes a clause about the court judgment. It says if the judgment restores the 2002 language, which this one does, the parties will reopen the part of the collective agreement that deals with the Education Fund, which was created to support classrooms with many children or those with special needs. The two parties will bargain from the restored language and the Education Fund will continue in effect until there is agreement on implementation or changes to the restored language.

B.C. Finance Minister Mike de Jong said on Thursday that those negotiations will take place “fairly immediately” and that the timing will allow changes to be addressed in February’s budget.

“I think we want to roll up our sleeves and get to work,” de Jong said. “We want to get to work implementing this as quickly as possible.”

De Jong said the decision is “good news” because now there is a “clearer set of rules” about bargaining and the circumstances around when governments can legislate the terms of labour contracts.

“The 2014 collective bargaining agreement was the longest agreement achieved with the B.C. Teachers Federation in B.C. history and it brought labour peace and stability to our classrooms,” de Jong said. “I would like to assure students, parents, teachers and employees in the education system that this stability continues, and this ruling does not bring disruption to classrooms.”


The two dissenting Supreme of Canada judges were Suzanne Cote and Russell Brown, the last two appointees of former prime minister Stephen Harper.

The 2014 judgment called for the government to pay the teachers’ federation $2 million in damages for extending the unconstitutional legislation to June 2013. Thursday judgment said the province needn’t pay the damages.

No retroactive grievances can be filed because the 2014 teachers’ contract contained a $105-million fund to address any grievances arising from the deletion of the contract clauses.


Horgan said, "Public education is now “the number 1 issue for me in the May provincial election."


Boy, Horken has a lot of #1 priorities that he has promised. Today, we know that there is a #1, and then then there is a #1A, and then on to #1b, maybe he will get on to #2 sometime before he gets voted out in the next election.
What year is that? Spring of 2021? It just can't come soon enough. Maybe the greens will call for a no confidence vote and withdraw their support of this wishy washy NDP consortium?
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby Walking Wounded » Dec 12th, 2017, 4:22 pm

*removed*
Last edited by ferri on Dec 12th, 2017, 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BCTF is not happy

Postby Urbane » Jan 18th, 2018, 6:02 pm

Despite the "crisis" in our public education system it turns out that students are doing very well compared to those in other provinces and to those in other countries. It will be interesting to see how the stats change with the infusion of new money.

As school districts around B.C. hire and train every qualified teacher they can find to fill an allegedly drastic shortage, the education ministry has put out the latest low-key update showing that the actual performance of the B.C. school system has no relationship to the hysterical political and media narrative that surrounds it.


And how are B.C.’s public schools measuring up nationally and internationally? Here are quotes from the current education ministry fact sheet, taken from a 2014 Conference Board of Canada report comparing B.C. to the rest of Canada and 16 “peer countries” around the world:

• B.C. finished ahead of all provinces.

• Only Finland and Japan finished ahead of B.C.

• More than 91 per cent of B.C. residents aged 25 to 64 have a high school diploma, higher than all other provinces and peer countries.

Note that the latest high school completion results are for the 2016-17 school year, before the B.C. government began pouring money in to hire 3,500 new teachers to meet the terms of a Supreme Court of Canada decision last year.
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