Minimum wage

[Ka-El]

It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out. I hope we're on the way to the utopia proponents suggest, and that my worst fears won't come to pass, but I suspect the result will be somewhere in the middle, with some people losing their investments, some losing their jobs, and some being somewhat better off than they were before, and most of us simply paying more for everything.

Well that last is going to happen (just as it has always been happening) anyway. If wages had even come anywhere close to keeping up with price and cost there would be a much stronger argument against raising the minimum wage, but we know that is not even close to true. Was listening to an analyst this morning who acknowledged there will be some short-term pain but suggested that those people who will benefit from the increase will also start spending more (because they can now afford to). Economists call this the multiplier effect, and this analyst suggested we could consider this move as economic stimulus. There are going to be some bumps, but really we are just coming more into line with our neighbors to the east and south. Perhaps if wages hadn't been held stagnant for so long the pain of adjustment could have been mitigated.

[Corneliousrooster]

. Was listening to an analyst this morning who acknowledged there will be some short-term pain but suggested that those people who will benefit from the increase will also start spending more (because they can now afford to). Economists call this the multiplier effect, and this analyst suggested we could consider this move as economic stimulus.

The problem I have with this is that it would make perfect sense in 1980 - the market has changed drastically and it is getting way more difficult for the brick and mortar to stay competitive with the internet. The only way this could stimulate the economy is if the extra dollars are spent locally in local enterprises. Having more money to spend on amazon or walmart.ca does absolutely nothing for the economy.

Since it hasn't been a "living wage" and this is supposed to help fix that I imagine it will all be swallowed by late payments and interest and so that won't help the economy much either.

But I guess the min. wage earners can now afford starbucks so they don't have to support Tim Hortons anymore.....

[Ka-El]

The problem I have with this is that it would make perfect sense in 1980 - the market has changed drastically .....

Yes, the income gap has increased exponentially.

The only way this could stimulate the economy is if the extra dollars are spent locally in local enterprises. Having more money to spend on amazon or walmart.ca does absolutely nothing for the economy.

That was, in fact, the argument being made – that local economies are exactly where that money would be spent. People work at Wal-Mart (and other retail operations), and people are paid to deliver stuff ordered on Amazon and on it goes. I think there is little argument that wages have fallen far behind, and it seems clear we are already behind other jurisdictions not only here in Canada, but south of us in Washington State. Again, I would suggest the problems encountered by such sudden and drastic movements in minimum wage might have been mitigated if wage changes had been keeping pace.

[Corneliousrooster]

Yes, the income gap has increased exponentially.


That was, in fact, the argument being made – that local economies are exactly where that money would be spent. People work at Wal-Mart (and other retail operations), and people are paid to deliver stuff ordered on Amazon and on it goes. I think there is little argument that wages have fallen far behind, and it seems clear we are already behind other jurisdictions not only here in Canada, but south of us in Washington State. Again, I would suggest the problems encountered by such sudden and drastic movements in minimum wage might have been mitigated if wage changes had been keeping pace.

The wage gap has changed for everyone - not just min.wage workers. A mechanic's pay check would go a lot farther in 1980 as well - same with a plumber or a nurse or almost any other job you can think of. if you don't like the wage nobody is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If companies don't want to pay fairly, they will be burdened with high turn over and training expenses - let the market figure itself out. The problem is that there is a large min. wage populace that has no ambition other than to remain at a dead end job so they beg the gov't to give them a raise by force.

You are arguing that people work at walmart so ...... walmart and the whole mentality is a big part of the reason we are in this mess but people are too stupid to see beyond their own pocket book and the amazing "savings" they get by shopping there without factoring the societal toll it has on the economy. Having more min. wage jobs at walmart is not helping anything.
More people delivering packages for amazon is a help??? Way to look at the big picture and try to find a silverlining in the death of small business. You do know they are testing drones as we speak .....

Keep comparing other jurisdictions and try to keep pace.... you want what they have? Move there instead of telling me to match - they are different areas with different economies. Why compare to the jurisdictions paying higher - maybe compare to the jurisdictions that are paying lower and functioning and try to replicate their success instead? You think BC should pay like Washington state or Alberta for no other reason than that we share a border. Should California base their economy off of Mexico - they share a border? Next time you need a tradesperson to fix something, ignore their rate and pay them what they would charge in the Yukon for the same service - we share a border afterall.

There is no logic - just looking at your neighbour and figuring you are entitled because they have it, without any regard for anything else. Emotional based entitlement - pure and simple. Sad thing is people eat this crap up.

[Ka-El]

The wage gap has changed for everyone - not just min.wage workers. A mechanic's pay check would go a lot farther in 1980 as well …

Yes. Did you think I was suggesting otherwise?

if you don't like the wage nobody is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If companies don't want to pay fairly, they will be burdened with high turn over and training expenses - let the market figure itself out.

Yes, I am very familiar with all the rhetorical arguments, and I agree it is the responsibility of individuals to improve their lot in life. However, if we only allowed the market to figure itself out without any intervention it would not be sustainable. In the game of monopoly there can only be one winner, and everyone else loses. We are already heading in that direction. There is a reason competitive sports leagues deliberately engage in a draft process favoring the most unsuccessful teams. They understand that without efforts to create parity their league would ultimately fail.

Having more min. wage jobs at walmart is not helping anything.

Having more people with jobs (instead of being on welfare) and spending money in their communities wouldn’t help? As many of the right-wingers around here like to note, minimum wage jobs are just a starting point for many people. I would think getting more people into the labour market would be a positive thing. Of course, the argument being made by many here is that this minimum wage increase will lead to job losses, and will use recent job loss numbers as evidence for that argument. Others would counter that argument by noting these recent job losses were just seasonal trends. I'm not going to make an argument either way as I believe both observations could very well be correct

Keep comparing other jurisdictions and try to keep pace.... you want what they have? Move there instead of telling me to match - .

Ah yes, again with the rhetorical arguments. Why don’t all the whiners all move to North Korea if they want communism so much? Still, as a former business owner, I do appreciate your concerns and your argument of how this affects people trying to run their own business. Again, I really do believe the potential problems being created this time are due mostly to such drastic measure being implemented in such a short timeframe. I remember as a manager of another business going through a few minimum wage increases that were not as drastic. We survived just fine. However, I do agree that the plan in place now is going to make it hard for some business owners.

- just looking at your neighbour and figuring you are entitled because they have it, without any regard for anything else. Emotional based entitlement - pure and simple. Sad thing is people eat this crap up.

I’m not really taking a side on this (just shared some comments made by an analyst this morning) but do know just trying to simply dismiss the issue as “emotional based entitlement - pure and simple” does not promote productive discussion. There is much more at play here, and the issue is far more complex than assuming people just want to live on welfare.

[Corneliousrooster]

The wage gap has changed for everyone - not just min.wage workers. A mechanic's pay check would go a lot farther in 1980 as well …

Yes. Did you think I was suggesting otherwise?
So you would be okay with the gov't stepping in and telling employers how much they HAVE to increase the pay of their plumbers to match alberta (or any other jurisdiction of your choice)? Maybe gov't should set the prices too?

if you don't like the wage nobody is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If companies don't want to pay fairly, they will be burdened with high turn over and training expenses - let the market figure itself out.

Yes, I am very familiar with all the rhetorical arguments, and I agree it is the responsibility of individuals to improve their lot in life. However, if we only allowed the market to figure itself out without any intervention it would not be sustainable. In the game of monopoly there can only be one winner, and everyone else loses. We are already heading in that direction. There is a reason competitive sports leagues deliberately engage in a draft process favoring the most unsuccessful teams. They understand that without efforts to create parity their league would ultimately fail.

Your comparisons are a bit of a stretch - by that logic gov't should be stepping in to make sure that the lowest paid in any field are getting bumped up to some parity line that "who decides"?

Having more min. wage jobs at walmart is not helping anything.

Having more people with jobs (instead of being on welfare) and spending money in their communities wouldn’t help? As many of the right-wingers around here like to note, minimum wage jobs are just a starting point for many people. I would think getting more people into the labour market would be a positive thing. Of course, the argument being made by many here is that this minimum wage increase will lead to job losses, and will use recent job loss numbers as evidence for that argument. Others would counter that argument by noting these recent job losses were just seasonal trends. I'm not going to make an argument either way as I believe both observations could very well be correct

By having more people filling min. wage jobs at one of the biggest corporate retailers in the world and having every other retailer have to match the wage being dictated by gov't - you have taken the argument of "fair min. wage to the lowest paid workers in the work force" and ignored the differences in the businesses you are forcing to pay the wage. Absolutely Walmart and the like should be paying more than min. wage to their workers but instead we as a society have settled for the fact that Walmart and the like will be min. wage jobs - and then we as a society accept those jobs on those terms instead of giving them the collective bird and having the market dictagte what they should be paying. Just compare superstore (loblaws) and walmart grocery for example - they both sell predominantly the same products but the wages and benifits for the staff are far better at one, and the prices are slightly lower (for the most part) at the other. 1 is union 1 is not. 1 tried to unionize in other locations and Walmart just shut down the whole store. Yet as a society we still support this company to "save" on our own personal bottom line with no regard for the bigger picture

Keep comparing other jurisdictions and try to keep pace.... you want what they have? Move there instead of telling me to match - .

Ah yes, again with the rhetorical arguments. Why don’t all the whiners all move to North Korea if they want communism so much? Still, as a former business owner, I do appreciate your concerns and your argument of how this affects people trying to run their own business. Again, I really do believe the potential problems being created this time are due mostly to such drastic measure being implemented in such a short timeframe. I remember as a manager of another business going through a few minimum wage increases that were not as drastic. We survived just fine. However, I do agree that the plan in place now is going to make it hard for some business owners.
For the record, i don't think anyone should have to move anywhere - but they should have to accept that we live in a unique economy to our neighbours - just like they live in a unique economy to their neighbours

- just looking at your neighbour and figuring you are entitled because they have it, without any regard for anything else. Emotional based entitlement - pure and simple. Sad thing is people eat this crap up.

I’m not really taking a side on this (just shared some comments made by an analyst this morning) but do know just trying to simply dismiss the issue as “emotional based entitlement - pure and simple” does not promote productive discussion. There is much more at play here, and the issue is far more complex than assuming people just want to live on welfare.

I am not trying to insinuate that people want to live on welfare - but making up an arbitrary number that really has no bearing in fact but rather in jealousy as to what somewhat up the road is making - portraying that there is this massive population of people that are forced to work for min. wage and survive off of it, that the only way they can possibly get ahead is if the gov't acts on their behalf..... what is wrong with calling it emotional based entitlement? How is it deserved? Why is it okay for the gov't to go into the wallets of small business (regardless of their financial situation) and demand that they pay more to alleviate the financial burden that is put on them?

[Ka-El]

I can tell you’re really emotionally invested in this issue, and as I’ve stated I can clearly understand and appreciate your concerns. I agree this is going to be a very real challenge for some small business owners. But some of your arguments are going off on tangents that are just making the discussion more convoluted. I have no interest in doing that. I am not supporting such a drastic move in minimum wage. I simply presented the view of an economist who suggested there will be positive impacts as well as negative ones. We are going to have to wait and see how this really ends up impacting our economy.

[Corneliousrooster]

I can tell you’re really emotionally invested in this issue, and as I’ve stated I can clearly understand and appreciate your concerns. I agree this is going to be a very real challenge for some small business owners. But some of your arguments are going off on tangents that are just making the discussion more convoluted. I have no interest in doing that. I am not supporting such a drastic move in minimum wage. I simply presented the view of an economist who suggested there will be positive impacts as well as negative ones. We are going to have to wait and see how this really ends up impacting our economy.

This directly affects me so yes - I am very invested in this issue. Waiting to see how this really ends up impacting our economy is not an option for me - I have to make some really difficult decisions that are going to affect some really hard working people and their families. I brought home about $5000 more than my highest paid employee last year (but I put in about twice the hours and my house is on the line) and I am not a billionaire CEO - no one at my business was ever paid min. wage at my company but this drastic increase by 2021 will have a huge impact on the bottom line of my company. I already know that the 2 hires for summer help (zero experience positions) will not be happening again this year so that I can afford to match the raise to the rest of my employees to keep them at par to min. wage increase. i will return to working a 7 day week through the summer instead of 5.

My main argument is why so many people think it is okay to pick on one segment of an economy and have them make up the perceived "slack". All business seems to be lumped in with this " greedy CEO of some mega corp" so there is no sympathy for anyone opposed to the wage increase. I must be heartless because I don't think that some kid not even out of highschool "deserves" $15/hr when they have never worked a day in their life. I don't think a walmart greeter deserves $15/hr (but if walmart wants to pay them that - awesome!)

[Ka-El]

This directly affects me so yes - I am very invested in this issue. Waiting to see how this really ends up impacting our economy is not an option for me - I have to make some really difficult decisions that are going to affect some really hard working people and their families.

I very much appreciate that Cornelious. As I’ve stated before on other threads discussing this issue, I understand the thin margins most businesses operate on and such a drastic move in the minimum wage is going to have some negative impacts, including job losses. There is no way I am going to suggest that is all right. I sympathize with business owners like yourself who are going to be put in such a difficult situation.

My main argument is why so many people think it is okay to pick on one segment of an economy and have them make up the perceived "slack". All business seems to be lumped in with this " greedy CEO of some mega corp" so there is no sympathy for anyone opposed to the wage increase.

Well, I do sympathize with and totally understand the opposition to this wage increase. I don’t think you’ll find any post by me picking on one segment of the economy, or suggesting all businesses should be lumped in with some greedy CEO of some mega corp. I merely passed on some observations made by an economist who suggested there will be both positive and negative impacts, and I agree there will be both winners and losers as a result and that the winners won’t be limited to the minimum wage earners (there will be benefits to the community, while there will also be significant difficulties and potential job losses for many as well). I do know that for business owners like yourself such a drastic move is going to make things extremely difficult. My argument, if I was going to make one, would be the adjustment would have been a whole lot easier if we had made more effort to keep up with minimum wage increase over time.

[Steve-O]

Raising minimum wag leads to increased income tax for provincial and federal gov't's. Read an article that the Ontario increase means more than 200m in provincial tax and over 400m in fed tax. So the low income level earners don't get quite the benefit we are being told to believe. Additionally, as proven in Ontario it leads to job losses not to mention the inflation that is to follow. Why not increase the Basic Personal Exemption so that those at the bottom of the wage scale can actually keep what they earn. Less taxation not more. Raising minimum wage isn't the answer.

[Queen K]

We are fighting over crumbs while the bosses make millions or billions.

Then you should have been a boss.

Did you even click on the link? tsk, tsk GF

"like so many people, took to Facebook to rant about something. Rushing, a paramedic, wrote an angry post about fast food workers winning a $15/hr wage that has since gone viral. But instead of getting angry that his skilled job only pays him the same amount, he stood in solidarity with the underpaid workers and had this to say to everyone complaining about the wage increase: “That's exactly what the bosses want! They want us fighting over who has the bigger pile of crumbs so we don't realize they made off with almost the whole damn cake.”