First nation proves they not extinct

Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby dirtybiker » Dec 30th, 2017, 10:09 pm

alanjh595 wrote:then be subject to the original methods of hunting when they were granted? For example, bows and arrows, and without modern means of use of snowmobiles, automobiles, GPS, compasses, down filled jackets and fleece under garments?
If they want to hunt and be treated as their ancestors had signed the agreements, then they should have to abide by the conditions that were there when that agreement was signed.


Well done. Perfect.
Bet that would thin the herd !
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Tony » Dec 31st, 2017, 8:02 am

Can anyone define a "ceremonial hunt"? Isn't a ceremony something sacred? If it's going to be ceremonial, then let's go all the way... wear the buckskins, hunt with your traditional ceremonial weapons, and use the animal for your ceremonial purposes, but, please, DON'T use "ceremonial hunt" just to come and hunt in BC to fill your freezer. Come across as any other resident in this great land, claim your legal hunting weapons, buy your license and proceed.

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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Jlabute » Dec 31st, 2017, 8:33 am

alanjh595 wrote:Isn't bringing firearms into Canada illegal? If they want to claim their hunting rights regardless of international boundaries, then be subject to the original methods of hunting when they were granted? For example, bows and arrows, and without modern means of use of snowmobiles, automobiles, GPS, compasses, down filled jackets and fleece under garments?
If they want to hunt and be treated as their ancestors had signed the agreements, then they should have to abide by the conditions that were there when that agreement was signed.
Bringing a firearm into Canada is illegal for everyone.
What if that person brought that firearm into Canada and "lost" it or traded it to a person that has been deemed by the Canadian court system as being banned from possessing firearms?
I wonder how many illegal firearms are brought into the country this way?


and... can aboriginal now be used as drug mules in to Canada? Ceremonial drugs I mean.
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby the truth » Dec 31st, 2017, 9:53 am

dirtybiker wrote:
alanjh595 wrote:then be subject to the original methods of hunting when they were granted? For example, bows and arrows, and without modern means of use of snowmobiles, automobiles, GPS, compasses, down filled jackets and fleece under garments?
If they want to hunt and be treated as their ancestors had signed the agreements, then they should have to abide by the conditions that were there when that agreement was signed.


Well done. Perfect.
Bet that would thin the herd !


ya by 100%, interesting how they want to hunt the old ways, but want to use the white mans guns, :135: :135:
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby the truth » Dec 31st, 2017, 9:55 am

Tony wrote:Can anyone define a "ceremonial hunt"? Isn't a ceremony something sacred? If it's going to be ceremonial, then let's go all the way... wear the buckskins, hunt with your traditional ceremonial weapons, and use the animal for your ceremonial purposes, but, please, DON'T use "ceremonial hunt" just to come and hunt in BC to fill your freezer. Come across as any other resident in this great land, claim your legal hunting weapons, buy your license and proceed.


that would be doing it the correct way
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Salistala » May 31st, 2018, 9:31 am

the truth wrote:quoting "Dirty Biker
alanjh595 wrote:then be subject to the original methods of hunting when they were granted? For example, bows and arrows, and without modern means of use of snowmobiles, automobiles, GPS, compasses, down filled jackets and fleece under garments?
If they want to hunt and be treated as their ancestors had signed the agreements, then they should have to abide by the conditions that were there when that agreement was signed.


"Well done. Perfect.
Bet that would thin the herd !"

ya by 100%, interesting how they want to hunt the old ways, but want to use the white mans guns, :135: :135:


The one-sidedness of your logic is brutal, all of you have rights enshrined in the treaties too. In order for you to enjoy the benefits of these treaties (lands, resources, revised legal tradition, etc.) are all of you going to revert back to your level of technology that was used when the treaties were signed? Logging with hand axes, mining with pick axes, transportation with horse and carriage or coal fired trains, curing diseases with leeches, etc. Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

Rights are enshrined in the people, not in time. And First Nations people have the right to develop in time just as you do. To say otherwise is discriminatory.

And your "white-man's guns" would be useless except for use as savage clubs without Chinese gunpowder. No one has a monopoly on technological advancement...
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby JagXKR » May 31st, 2018, 3:02 pm

Your logic is brutal. The "white-man", as you have so eloquently shown your racism, does not hold onto the traditions as doctrine in their culture. All cultures (notice the difference) have evolved and improved and hold on to their past as a guide of what they were and a measuring stick on their advancement. Sadly some cultures do not wish to advance and then the "race card" comes out when the subject is brought up. Sad, very sad really. Nothing to do with race but everything to do with culture.

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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby alanjh595 » May 31st, 2018, 4:32 pm

The issue is that they, (the natives) want to control our progress and hold us back from making technological advancements to suit their wishes.
The want to "cherry pick" their fruit of choice and restrict us to their old customs. It has been proven many times over the last century that they abandon their rights and beliefs for the right price.
It's all about the money.
They have also proven that they will "make a deal" and then cancel it at a later date.
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby the truth » May 31st, 2018, 11:31 pm

yup..........................
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Brass Monkey » Jun 1st, 2018, 3:00 am

alanjh595 wrote:The issue is that they, (the natives) want to control our progress and hold us back from making technological advancements to suit their wishes.
The want to "cherry pick" their fruit of choice and restrict us to their old customs. It has been proven many times over the last century that they abandon their rights and beliefs for the right price.
It's all about the money.
They have also proven that they will "make a deal" and then cancel it at a later date.


The one demographic historically known for disregarding deals and overstepping signed legislation is not the natives...the British Empire spent millions of dollars and 100s of years trying to squash our native rights and beliefs and we’re still here. Natives have had 0 political power up until 60 years ago...it was Europeans inhibiting progress within indigenous communities by way of forced segregation and poverty, not the other way around.
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Brass Monkey » Jun 1st, 2018, 3:01 am

alanjh595 wrote:The issue is that they, (the natives) want to control our progress and hold us back from making technological advancements to suit their wishes.
The want to "cherry pick" their fruit of choice and restrict us to their old customs. It has been proven many times over the last century that they abandon their rights and beliefs for the right price.
It's all about the money.
They have also proven that they will "make a deal" and then cancel it at a later date.


It’s no coincidence that Australian Aborigines, South Africans, African Americans and Native Americans were all the last to receive basic rights post-colonialism and are the least progressive communities.
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Salistala » Jun 4th, 2018, 4:00 pm

JagXKR wrote:Your logic is brutal. The "white-man", as you have so eloquently shown your racism, does not hold onto the traditions as doctrine in their culture. All cultures (notice the difference) have evolved and improved and hold on to their past as a guide of what they were and a measuring stick on their advancement. Sadly some cultures do not wish to advance and then the "race card" comes out when the subject is brought up. Sad, very sad really. Nothing to do with race but everything to do with culture.


Racism? Show me where I was racist.

"White-man"? You should notice the quotation marks, quotations mean I was directly quoting someone, in this case the poster known as “the truth”. If you have a problem with the words "White-man" take it up with him.

And then you continue when you state that people of European descent do not hold on to tradition as a doctrine in their culture. I guess you didn't notice the "MAGA" or Britain First movements, or any other European ultra-nationalist movement. Ultra-nationalism is exactly what you say Europeans don't do, doctrine held by a political group that appeals to a fictional past to further some isolationist or discriminatory agenda.

So instead of creating straw men, so you can dismiss me without having to actually think, how about actually debating my points as stated? You know? Like First Nations have every right to enjoy the privileges bestowed upon them by the treaties (if there was even a treaty to begin with, most of British Columbia is unceded) in the present, using the tools available to them now, instead of being artificially restricted by a limitation on the technology they can use to hunt.

And finally, I am bi-cultural with a mix of Scottish and Heiltsuk, so when I debate race-relations issues (or cultural-relations issues, if you wish) I usually debate the points of those I argue with not their personal details. I don't care if you're Georgian, English, or Latvian; I do care if you're supporting your argument with flawed logic or inaccurate facts.
Last edited by Salistala on Jun 4th, 2018, 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby JagXKR » Jun 4th, 2018, 10:39 pm

Salistala wrote:
Racism? (blah blah blah) inaccurate facts.


Nuts. What a bunch of rambling illogical gobbledygook. The natives want their "culture" and science to co-exist but it does not work that way. Superstition, religion, culture has always been a hindrance and an enemy to science.

Treaties written long long long ago mean nothing in the modern world and using the same old tired argument is the real issue. Join modern civilization or don't, your choice. But trying to keep ancient cultures and science together is one of the many reasons today's first nations are having so much difficulty. I would to if on one hand I was told about all the spirits that control the earth and on the other hand having science show me the marvels of the atom or a nearby (relatively) galaxy. It would be troubling for me to reconcile the "culture" with the realities of a modern civilization.

It would also be hypocritical to use all that science has provided for me but at the same time believing in mysticism or superstition as the benefactor of my modern life with all the conveniences that it entails. The only way we got to our fantastic modern scientific civilization was to shed the fear and allow science to be the doctrine, not the boogeyman.
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Re: First nation proves they not extinct

Postby Mark5 » Jun 5th, 2018, 12:12 am

His ancestors did not have trucks and highways and guns. They were on foot until the Spanish brought horses and they used dugout canoes. Many different tribes fought wars over hunting areas. Things are not the same as they used to be.This was a romantic notion court decision and rather irrational.
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Re: Wildlife for free.

Postby Ken7 » Jun 5th, 2018, 7:18 am

Queen K wrote:An American Indigenous man's right to hunt in Canada has been upheld by a judge because his ancestors traditionally hunted in this country.

Richard Desautel was charged with violations under British Columbia's Wildlife Act after he shot and killed a cow elk near Castlegar in 2010.

Desautel, a member of the Lakes Tribe in Washington state, argued in provincial court that he was exercising his constitutional right to hunt for ceremonial purposes and was acquitted of the charges in March.

But the Crown appealed to the B.C. Supreme Court, arguing that Desautel is not an Aboriginal person of Canada because the First Nation he claims to be a member of was declared extinct, so he doesn't have that constitutional right.

Justice Robert Sewell has dismissed the appeal, saying Desautel's tribe traditionally lived on both sides of the border and it has deep connections to its territory in Canada.

Sewell's written decision says denying the group's rights would be inconsistent with the objective of reconciliation, because the group occupied the land before European settlers came into contact with First Nations and continued to use the territory after an international boundary was imposed.



Indiginous people are dual citizens and have the right to hunt in both Canada and USA. I am surprised that a charge was even laid.

Oh well now they know. What did surprise me was " hunt for ceremonial purposes". Why not just say he was exercising his treaty rights. End of story.
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