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Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby kibbs » Jan 14th, 2013, 11:08 am

I'm afraid at this point that just comes off as and outdated at that since day 17 of the phony hunger strike was more than two weeks ago.
Greenpeace has expressed its support for the movement and its vision of a more just society

it was said that the environmental movement is not in I.N.M.'s corner .The proof is in green this statement is from Greenpeace.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby waterwings » Jan 14th, 2013, 11:22 am

grammafreddy wrote:Just because the government website states the above, doesn't mean the government gives them the money or that CMHC approves the loan. One of the complaints the bands have is that the process is so mired in red tape that things take far too long.


JUst because you post links that you want people to read and believe in doesn't mean that I don't understand others can google and find information all on their own that doesn't lead them down my garden path and oh....yeah.....the white guy has so go the same process too with red tape. Its called accountability, responsibility and measuring the markers.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 11:31 am

Greenpeace is quite often another waste of time, sometime they mean well and sometimes they create as much havoc as the next group of protesters. Not a group everyone wants to become a follower of,,, so what about what they said about the movement,,,
Next,,,,,,!
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 11:37 am

grammafreddy wrote:Just because the government website states the above, doesn't mean the government gives them the money or that CMHC approves the loan. One of the complaints the bands have is that the process is so mired in red tape that things take far too long.


waterwings
JUst because you post links that you want people to read and believe in doesn't mean that I don't understand others can google and find information all on their own that doesn't lead them down my garden path and oh....yeah.....the white guy has so go the same process too with red tape. Its called accountability, responsibility and measuring the markers.


And if it takes too long then give up and find a better way to make money.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 11:42 am

grammafreddy wrote:Just because the government website states the above, doesn't mean the government gives them the money or that CMHC approves the loan. One of the complaints the bands have is that the process is so mired in red tape that things take far too long.

waterwings wrote:JUst because you post links that you want people to read and believe in doesn't mean that I don't understand others can google and find information all on their own that doesn't lead them down my garden path and oh....yeah.....the white guy has so go the same process too with red tape. Its called accountability, responsibility and measuring the markers.


By all means - google for info and post the links to support what you are saying. I kept asking for links because things taken out of context can be quite misleading (as Ezra Levant does).

There's not a lot of point in chastising me for what I post if you have been too lazy to go after your own information.

I haven't led anyone down any garden path - I have posted from both sides from a great variety of credible sources and what most of it has been has been the historical background to the situation and the reasoning why the natives feel as they do as well as the legal reasons why you and I have to keep paying. I don't make it up - its there for anyone who desires to educate themselves.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Jan 14th, 2013, 12:28 pm

grammafreddy wrote: One of the complaints the bands have is that the process is so mired in red tape that things take far too long.


I wonder about that. "The process" might take them as long to do as it does to do some house maintenance or yard work, and that seems to take forever in most cases. One has to wonder how much effort is put into the process when little effort is put into most anything else for the betterment of themselves.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 12:44 pm

zzontar wrote:
I wonder about that. "The process" might take them as long to do as it does to do some house maintenance or yard work, and that seems to take forever in most cases. One has to wonder how much effort is put into the process when little effort is put into most anything else for the betterment of themselves.


I don't pretend to know all the answers but I suppose one could look at this in a whole context and recognize that people in general who are given everything do not do much to help themselves. Within the non-native community, there are those who do not maintain their homes when they are long-term living on public funding. One could also say they do not do much for the betterment of themselves and little effort is put into much of anything.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 12:54 pm

grammafreddy wrote:most of it has been has been the historical background to the situation and the reasoning why the natives feel as they do as well as the legal reasons why you and I have to keep paying. I don't make it up - its there for anyone who desires to educate themselves.


See thats the problem, if we all lived in the history of it all we would be screwed. We'd be in reverse. We move on, we make new things, we find better ways of managing our selves as things change and wages get a little lower and populations grow bigger and ozone layer thins itself,,, why shouldnt they move on to the present and seek a future? Why do they want to stay back behind all thats happening and dwell on a system that should have helped them out of their rut? You encourage that and I find it odd. We should never encourage a living in the past. As long as it doesnt change no one will take a step forward.

And I agree and have said so, its not only the natives, some non natives live with the same thinking but we are talking whole communities here.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby kibbs » Jan 14th, 2013, 12:55 pm

next group of protesters. Not a group everyone wants to become a follower of,,, so what about what they said about the movement,,,
Next,,,,,,!

its been said that one supports environmental groups .The other parties support them, which groups do you support? Besides the Harper government.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Jan 14th, 2013, 12:56 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
I don't pretend to know all the answers but I suppose one could look at this in a whole context and recognize that people in general who are given everything do not do much to help themselves. Within the non-native community, there are those who do not maintain their homes when they are long-term living on public funding. One could also say they do not do much for the betterment of themselves and little effort is put into much of anything.


That's true, but seeing as ALL natives on reserves are given these things, to keep doing so will be counter-productive. I think a strata-type system would be a good idea where when given homes, they must do the upkeep and yard work, no garbage and old cars in the yard, etc. or they lose their house with the option of living on another part of the reserve in a teepeee which they must build. This would eliminate the "we don't have nice housing" complaints and also eliminate the "we want our old ways" complaint, as they would have the two options.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:13 pm

grammafreddy wrote:most of it has been has been the historical background to the situation and the reasoning why the natives feel as they do as well as the legal reasons why you and I have to keep paying. I don't make it up - its there for anyone who desires to educate themselves.

Roadster wrote:See thats the problem, if we all lived in the history of it all we would be screwed. We'd be in reverse. We move on, we make new things, we find better ways of managing our selves as things change and wages get a little lower and populations grow bigger and ozone layer thins itself,,, why shouldnt they move on to the present and seek a future? Why do they want to stay back behind all thats happening and dwell on a system that should have helped them out of their rut? You encourage that and I find it odd. We should never encourage a living in the past. As long as it doesnt change no one will take a step forward.

And I agree and have said so, its not only the natives, some non natives live with the same thinking but we are talking whole communities here.


Roadie - at no point in time in any of these posts have I said they shouldn't move on , shouldn't try to better themselves, shouldn't make any effort.

What I have tried to do is give the reasons WHY it is like it is so that people have a better understanding of what the issues are and how they got to be that way. In order to do that, you have to look at what has happened in the past. You have to look at what the government at any point in time in the past has done. You have to look at the legislation that controls these people on their reserves and why the government enacted that legislation and what they promised the people and enshrined in law and in the Canadian Constitution. At no point in the past did the Canadian government do it to benefit the natives - they did it to gain access to the natives' territories by way of removing those people to the reservations the government established and in order to get them to move to the reserves they promised certain things through legislation and through treaties. The government then did not uphold their end of things and the natives have felt betrayed because they did.

One must also consider, too, that governments and the Crown had educated people and fast-talking lawyers while the people were not educated at all.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:25 pm

I dont think many of us care why anymore GF, its time to knock it off and give them a whole new reason to move it along. Support their new adventures, it really is time. Too much money has been misshandled and the people arent getting all of it and yet they sit and wait for what "takes too long" as said earlier.
That or if they are gonna choose to sit longer then monitor the Government's money by the government and get it to where it is supposed to go so people arent freezing.
My choice would be to support their education and see them move on into society and put back into it as we all do. They claim they need to stay on their land,,, if that land is where the government put them way back then, then why do they care about it so much? As it is all they will ever do is live on it, and then their kids will live on it and so on, up in the cold, in the snow, in leaky shacks, why not work and own their very own property like most others do? Its not given to us but We can sell it when it gains value, we can Give it to our kids, we can upgrade it, build a new house on it or add a garage, even have chickens now,,, see where I am going? History isnt everything, specially when they still feel hurt over it.

What gets me and most others is a chief who supposedly has all the nessesities of a queen in our country according to income and she is starving to tell us her community of 300 families are freezing,,, what is wrong with that picture?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Lady tehMa » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:26 pm

Regarding living on the Rez: what about all those non-indian folk who have homes on 99 year leases? The majority of them show pride in their home, even if they can't own.

As for living in uninsulated homes, I know of at least one person (QK) who was living in a home with wood chip insulation . . . she and her S.O. renovated. Took them time, money and sweat equity but they did it.

I agree that it is time to abolish Indian Status, and just have Canadians. Equal across the board. Everyone responsible for themselves (well, except for those who feel the need to blame people instead of taking responisibility for their own choices). Chief Louis has it right.

It is time to let the past stay in the past. Acknowledge it, learn from it, and move on. Women in my family line fought for a vote, they didn't spend the rest of their lifetimes demanding compensation or teaching the new generations to demand compensation for ill-treatment. Some of those women died in jail for a vote - just equal say. Visible minorities of all kinds have suffered ill-treatment all over the world all through history, and still currently (gang rape in India? Teen activist for women's rights shot?). Only in Canada can someone drag something up from the past and use it as a reason for special treatment. Enough already. Join the new century - if you're worrried about your culture, then work at keeping it alive (like so many of other cultures do).
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:31 pm

Awesome post Lady T,,,

10/10

I bought an uninsulated shack once (mobile so old anything in the walls was dust) for a crappy car and 500 bucks, tore it apart inside and made it a home, sold it to an east indian in the south Okanagan for his orchard for 5 thousand bucks,,, and he moved it. Looked pretty good heading down the highway.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:33 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
I don't pretend to know all the answers but I suppose one could look at this in a whole context and recognize that people in general who are given everything do not do much to help themselves. Within the non-native community, there are those who do not maintain their homes when they are long-term living on public funding. One could also say they do not do much for the betterment of themselves and little effort is put into much of anything.

zzontar wrote:That's true, but seeing as ALL natives on reserves are given these things, to keep doing so will be counter-productive. I think a strata-type system would be a good idea where when given homes, they must do the upkeep and yard work, no garbage and old cars in the yard, etc. or they lose their house with the option of living on another part of the reserve in a teepeee which they must build. This would eliminate the "we don't have nice housing" complaints and also eliminate the "we want our old ways" complaint, as they would have the two options.


Well, here's where the problem comes in - while you and I think that ALL natives on the reserves get these things, that may not be true. The band gets the money doled out to them in bits and pieces as the ministry deems it wants to, not necessarily as the natives need it or want it. THEN one also must add in the corruption on a lot of the reservations within their government system - the chiefs and councillors who appear to have great wealth while the people live in substandard housing with unclean water and backed-up septic and mold growing on the walls. In many ways, this IMO is done to build their empires and to control their own people on the reserves. I find that shameful to the max and I think it needs to be exposed and the funding the reserves get needs to be distributed in some other manner - but I don't know what would work best for the people when so many of them are addicts of various kinds now and when FASD is rife on the reserves.
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