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Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby waterwings » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:47 pm

FIRE the Chiefs. Have a vote. Elect a head honcho and 12 representatives from across Canada to sit in Parliament with the rest of Canadians representatives who can develop some programs to hand out money (accountable in an audit) for schools, treatment programs, housing, home upkeep and repair, etc. etc. etc. EASY Do not be Idle any more. Go to work. Earn monthly Child Tax Benefits.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:49 pm

Another thing overlooked is in the old treaties, nothing was mentioned about the natives getting to use vehicles, electricity, TV's, Cel phones, ATV's, snowmobiles, lights, aspirin, fridges, etc, etc. It seems over time they've gotten a lot more from the white man than bargained for without giving any more back. Of course there are those who will say they want the old ways, but how many choose to even live in a teepee on reserves?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:59 pm

^^^^^ Good points made there ^^^^^
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Lady tehMa » Jan 14th, 2013, 1:59 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
Well, here's where the problem comes in - while you and I think that ALL natives on the reserves get these things, that may not be true. The band gets the money doled out to them in bits and pieces as the ministry deems it wants to, not necessarily as the natives need it or want it. THEN one also must add in the corruption on a lot of the reservations within their government system - the chiefs and councillors who appear to have great wealth while the people live in substandard housing with unclean water and backed-up septic and mold growing on the walls. In many ways, this IMO is done to build their empires and to control their own people on the reserves. I find that shameful to the max and I think it needs to be exposed and the funding the reserves get needs to be distributed in some other manner - but I don't know what would work best for the people when so many of them are addicts of various kinds now and when FASD is rife on the reserves.


Guess what? Non-Indian folk also have to deal with corruption in government. We also have to deal with families and cycles of addiction (Crossroads closing wouldn't cause such an issue were it not the case). People who live on the reservations don't have a corner on suffering.

I agree with you in that it has to change. Thing is, they have to take responsibility for it themselves. It isn't like we've done much better, but usually you will find that at least we admit we are responisible. Quite blaming events that took place in the past and deal with it. My next door neighbour years (and a few neighbours) ago was an alcholic. He admitted it. He could have pointed at family history years and years down and blamed them for it, but he finally took responsibility for himself. He went to Crossroads, and got clean. I don't know if he's still clean -lost touch. But he said something: "In order to control a runaway horse, you gotta take the reins. Can't stop it by grousing about whatever caused the horse to bolt, gotta take action."

They actually have a better chance at changing their political system, far less cumbersome than ours (or so I believe). So stop with the excuses already, and grab the reins.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:12 pm

Lady tehMa wrote:Regarding living on the Rez: what about all those non-indian folk who have homes on 99 year leases? The majority of them show pride in their home, even if they can't own.

As for living in uninsulated homes, I know of at least one person (QK) who was living in a home with wood chip insulation . . . she and her S.O. renovated. Took them time, money and sweat equity but they did it.

I agree that it is time to abolish Indian Status, and just have Canadians. Equal across the board. Everyone responsible for themselves (well, except for those who feel the need to blame people instead of taking responisibility for their own choices). Chief Louis has it right.

It is time to let the past stay in the past. Acknowledge it, learn from it, and move on. Women in my family line fought for a vote, they didn't spend the rest of their lifetimes demanding compensation or teaching the new generations to demand compensation for ill-treatment. Some of those women died in jail for a vote - just equal say. Visible minorities of all kinds have suffered ill-treatment all over the world all through history, and still currently (gang rape in India? Teen activist for women's rights shot?). Only in Canada can someone drag something up from the past and use it as a reason for special treatment. Enough already. Join the new century - if you're worrried about your culture, then work at keeping it alive (like so many of other cultures do).


A good post for sure but unfortunately, from a non-native perspective. I have agreed it is time to move on but the legislation still exists that keeps the people on the reserves and controls them. When Cretien was PM he considered abolishing the reservations but at that time the chiefs did not agree and wanted to keep them. One must question why that would be so. One must consider the appearance today of mass corruption on the part of the chiefs and band councillors and deal with that. Perhaps this INM movement will help to address those issues for the benefit of the people as it is a "people's movement".

As for Chief Louie being right ... in part, yes. His philosophies have merit to move the economies of the reserves forward. BUT consider the incomes and homes both Chief Louies (WFN and OIB) enjoy that their people do not. Is the wealth generated by these two reserves getting back to their people - or do they still have their own people living in shacks and not getting the benefits the chiefs enjoy?

The reserves did not always have the ability to allow outside land tenants, residential, commercial or industrial or to tax those tenants on the government's reservation land. The land did not belong to the people and the government denied them that revenue stream. Things have changed and now they can - but they still have to have the approval of the government to do so. This works well with some reserves who have good land and nice weather and other plus factors but many reserves are not so advantaged - especially the ones in the far north or the ones who did not get prime land from the government for their reserves. Also, some bands got huge tracts of reserve lands while others only got an acre per person.

I argue that the native people have fought to keep their cultures and languages alive - even though the government has done its best to beat it out of them. It removed their children from the reserves in order to "educate" them in the white man's ways, forbade the people their ceremonies and from speaking their own languages and from following their traditional ways. The reservations became their prisons where they were not allowed to leave the boundaries without special governmental permission and were forced to comply with what the government dictated in order to get what their treaties said they would get.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby the truth » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:13 pm

great point lady t
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:26 pm

zzontar wrote:Another thing overlooked is in the old treaties, nothing was mentioned about the natives getting to use vehicles, electricity, TV's, Cel phones, ATV's, snowmobiles, lights, aspirin, fridges, etc, etc. It seems over time they've gotten a lot more from the white man than bargained for without giving any more back. Of course there are those who will say they want the old ways, but how many choose to even live in a teepee on reserves?


C'mon, zzontar. Think. How many welfare people have TVs, cellphones, electricity, vehicles, fridges, free medical and dental and prescriptions? How much do they give back?

As for the tipis, the government forbade them to have their tipis along with a lot of other "indian" things. Today, some do have tipis, but not as their regular homes. They are now tourist attractions and some reserves rent them out to non-native people for funsies. Tipis were their summer homes which they moved with them from place to place as they followed the wild game or gathered and dried the wild food. In winter they lived in kekulis and other kinds of warmer homes. Not all Indians lived in tipis, either.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:31 pm

@Lady tehMa ... I am hopeful that the INM movement will move things forward and help the people see that they have a lot of corruption within their own reserves which has been keeping their people mired in addictions and poverty and rendered them incapable of "helping themselves".

Perhaps it is time for government to start listening to the people and not to the chiefs.

I found this article interesting http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commenta ... le7296268/

Follow the link for the whole article. This quote is just a part of it:

What is the way out of this dark pit? I conclude with two points.

The first is to say again: unless the Prime Minster gets deeply into this – the greatest moral challenge in Canadian politics – little progress will be made. The whole rotten system is suffering from a marked deficit of attention and imagination and determination.

The second is that we have spent way too much time and treasure on chiefs and not nearly enough on Indians. I make this central point in my book, A New Look at Canadian Indian Policy. The subtitle tells the story: “Respect the Collective; Promote the Individual.”

Start sending much less money to the chiefs and divert it to individuals to use for their families. Let the chiefs tax it back if they can.

Give individuals the resources for mobility, which means both cash and above all, education. Half of status Indians have already voted with their feet and left the reserves for a better life. The reserves can be a fortress, but they can also be a prison.

And pay the provinces to deliver the many social programs that they do reasonably well for non-Indians, such as health and welfare. Take the management away from Indian Affairs.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:47 pm

grammafreddy wrote:As for Chief Louie being right ... in part, yes. His philosophies have merit to move the economies of the reserves forward. BUT consider the incomes and homes both Chief Louies (WFN and OIB) enjoy that their people do not. Is the wealth generated by these two reserves getting back to their people - or do they still have their own people living in shacks and not getting the benefits the chiefs enjoy?


Sorry GF but there's quite a lot of folks in Kelowna that live in multi million dollar mansions, yet I don't, so how is that any different from what regular Canadians live in?

Not all members of a band will live in mansions, just like not all regular folk will, some in fact are not even destined to ever own a home, so that aspect doesn't really make them any better or worse off than the rest of us. In fact sort of equal actually.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 2:57 pm

grammafreddy wrote:As for Chief Louie being right ... in part, yes. His philosophies have merit to move the economies of the reserves forward. BUT consider the incomes and homes both Chief Louies (WFN and OIB) enjoy that their people do not. Is the wealth generated by these two reserves getting back to their people - or do they still have their own people living in shacks and not getting the benefits the chiefs enjoy?

LoneWolf_53 wrote:Sorry GF but there's quite a lot of folks in Kelowna that live in multi million dollar mansions, yet I don't, so how is that any different from what regular Canadians live in?

Not all members of a band will live in mansions, just like not all regular folk will, some in fact are not even destined to ever own a home, so that aspect doesn't really make them any better or worse off than the rest of us. In fact sort of equal actually.


Sorry, LW but the people who live in multi-million dollar mansions in Kelowna didn't build them on government land with money given to them by government which was intended to be equally shared for the benefit of all the people who lived on restricted and controlled government lands.

People off reserve have the ability to own their land and own their homes. On reserves, they do not. The government owns those homes and owns that land.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Jan 14th, 2013, 3:10 pm

I think you're engaging in some speculating GF and without actual details that's all it is.

WFN has some very well to do business men in their ranks, and yes their homes suggest as much, but that doesn't mean they got them at the expense of other band members.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby oneh2obabe » Jan 14th, 2013, 3:15 pm

grammafreddy wrote:People off reserve have the ability to own their land and own their homes. On reserves, they do not. The government owns those homes and owns that land.

Sorry, but that's not fact - each reserve has different parameters. WFN has both types of housing - privately owned and band owned. Band owned are rented out and privately owned either own the land or lease it from WNF for a nominal fee and are subject to property taxes.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 3:17 pm

LoneWolf_53 wrote:I think you're engaging in some speculating GF and without actual details that's all it is.

WFN has some very well to do business men in their ranks, and yes their homes suggest as much, but that doesn't mean they got them at the expense of other band members.


Of course it is. Can you apply the same thought to Chief Spence? Perhaps she is "a very smart business person", too.

How is it that WFN has very well to do business men in their ranks when their incomes have been derived from band revenue but the other band members have not shared in this revenue? Does band revenue not belong to all people on the reserves equally?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby oneh2obabe » Jan 14th, 2013, 3:20 pm

grammafreddy wrote:How is it that WFN has very well to do business men in their ranks when their incomes have been derived from band revenue but the other band members have not shared in this revenue? Does band revenue not belong to all people on the reserves equally?

Actually, WFN band members do share in the revenue - they get a check ... not sure if it's every month or every quarter.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 14th, 2013, 3:26 pm

grammafreddy wrote:People off reserve have the ability to own their land and own their homes. On reserves, they do not. The government owns those homes and owns that land.

oneh2obabe wrote:Sorry, but that's not fact - each reserve has different parameters. WFN has both types of housing - privately owned and band owned. Band owned are rented out and privately owned lease the land for a nominal fee and are subject to property taxes.


WFN falls into a whole separate parameter than any other band. I gave you a link earlier to their special legislation that pertains only to them.

Here it is again ... http://www.wfn.ca/bitterroot/landreg.htm?RD=1

The government still owns the land as far as I can see.
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