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Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 2nd, 2013, 6:08 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
Right, CF - the last residential school closed in 1996 in Saskatchewan. That's not very long ago, is it, CV?

As far as Treaties are concerned, since 1975, there have been 22 comprehensive claims agreements, commonly known as "modern treaties", concluded across northern Québec, the Northwest Territories, the Yukon and British Columbia.

cv23 wrote:So we gave them a free education and a place to live based on their race. That's more than any other Canadian got.

How much land did the government "give" to other Canadians, based soley on race, since 1975 ?


Their education is and was almost non-existent over the past 200 years. In the residential schools, they worked and prayed more than they were educated in school subjects.

The free place to live was always substandard. One residential school in the north, at Coppermine (now Nunavut) was in a wood-framed tent and the residents all lived in small wood-framed tents, too - in the cold and snowy northern winters.

CoppermineRes-School.jpg


As far as I am aware, there are no mansions on the reserves for the average native person - not even Chief Spence lives in anything very fancy - unless you want to call living in the former jail "fancy". Most on-reserve housing is pretty cruddy and dilapidated.

How much land did the federal government give to the natives to own outright since - or before - 1975?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 2nd, 2013, 6:16 pm

"One Atlantic Canada reserve politician paid $978,468 tax free in 2008-09 (equivalent to about $1.8 million off reserve)"
http://taxpayer.com/federal/new-jaw-dro ... ay-numbers

The problem isn't the Canadian Government but within the native government
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 2nd, 2013, 6:38 pm

grammafreddy wrote:How much land did the federal government give to the natives to own outright since - or before - 1975?

Actually initially the Canadian government did give natives land to own outright. Sadly though many natives sold their land for peanuts or just blew the money the did sell it for and looked at the government for more. The government stepped in to save the natives from themselves and declared that native land could not be sold.

Still waiting to hear how much land the government gave to other Canadians based soley on race at any time.
During WW2 the government seized land and property from Japanese Canadians. That was wrong but it has been dealt with in the form of an apology. The apology wasn't right either but you don't see Japanese Canadians pulling any of the stuff we see everyday from "First Nations" people do you? Many Chinese Canadians are decendants of people brought to this country as slaves, some with the governments virtual blessing. They didn't even get residential schools, poor land, or tents to live in. Do we hear them blockading roads and going on "hunger strikes"?
Sorry but the only people playing the race card and perpetuating the "poor indian" stereotype are the natives themselves and the sooner we stop treating them differently and start treating them as equals in every way the better off they will be.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 2nd, 2013, 7:53 pm

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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 2nd, 2013, 8:24 pm

cv23 wrote:Actually initially the Canadian government did give natives land to own outright. Sadly though many natives sold their land for peanuts or just blew the money the did sell it for and looked at the government for more. The government stepped in to save the natives from themselves and declared that native land could not be sold.


have you got a source for that, please?

cv23 wrote:Still waiting to hear how much land the government gave to other Canadians based soley on race at any time.
During WW2 the government seized land and property from Japanese Canadians. That was wrong but it has been dealt with in the form of an apology. The apology wasn't right either but you don't see Japanese Canadians pulling any of the stuff we see everyday from "First Nations" people do you? Many Chinese Canadians are decendants of people brought to this country as slaves, some with the governments virtual blessing. They didn't even get residential schools, poor land, or tents to live in. Do we hear them blockading roads and going on "hunger strikes"?
Sorry but the only people playing the race card and perpetuating the "poor indian" stereotype are the natives themselves and the sooner we stop treating them differently and start treating them as equals in every way the better off they will be.


I don't think the Japanese or the Chinese have anything to do with native peoples in Canada.

I doubt native peoples will ever be treated as equals in any way in Canada. We'll mouth the words in public but in private and in our thoughts we will not be considering them anywhere near our equals. That is rather obvious just from these threads. Too many generations have looked down their noses at them for them to ever be treated as equals.

Unless, of course, you don't really mean equals in every way. Perhaps you just mean equals as in paying taxes, not getting free anything and letting the government kick them off the reserves and force them to assimilate with the rest of us - even though most of them are ill prepared to do so. In other words, you want them to become "civilized" - like us. :127:
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 2nd, 2013, 9:02 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Unless, of course, you don't really mean equals in every way. Perhaps you just mean equals as in paying taxes, not getting free anything and letting the government kick them off the reserves and force them to assimilate with the rest of us - even though most of them are ill prepared to do so.

You clearly don't actually read posts do you?
I and at least one other have suggested not kicking anyone off a reserve but actually giving them that reserve land as free hold. I even suggested giving every full blooded native a one time $10mil cheque. Yes there would be no more getting free anything than any other Canadian gets for free and yes they would have to pay taxes. Each one would be a multimillionare to live the life they choose.
The "First Nations" people of Canada have received billions over the last few generations, most of which has come from individual tax payers. We have given to not taken from them in any way. This is root of their social problems and why some in Canada look down at them. By receiving free money just because of their race few have any real idea of its worth. All they know is that the cheque comes at the first of the month no matter what. The money is not earned nor is there any foreseeable end to this free money. Why save? Why work? Without any real responsibilities boredom sets in and so does ways to end the boredom like the kicks from booze, drugs, etc. Natives are no different than anyone else. Can you imagine the problems we'd face if everyone got a cheque every month that paid all their bills? The only reason the percentage of native substance abusers is so high is that such a high percentage of them receives free money every month. All the taxpayers see is their hard earned money distributed to a group who appear to be made up of lazy drug addicted booze hounds. Then it is further rubbed in their faces that this group makes little or no financial contribution to their own existence. Now you see why so many may "look down upon" the natives?
The sooner we put a stop to treating the native population differently the better it will be for everyone , especially the natives.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 2nd, 2013, 9:32 pm

10 mil cheque? Are you nuts? Land, give em that whether they choose to live on it or not and an education to what ever work they want to do as long as they are attending the school,,, rent and food in and then they go to work once the education is completed.

Before we give every native even a mil we gotta give every Canadian a mil too...
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 2nd, 2013, 10:09 pm

cv23 wrote:You clearly don't actually read posts do you?
I and at least one other have suggested not kicking anyone off a reserve but actually giving them that reserve land as free hold. I even suggested giving every full blooded native a one time $10mil cheque. Yes there would be no more getting free anything than any other Canadian gets for free and yes they would have to pay taxes. Each one would be a multimillionare to live the life they choose.
The "First Nations" people of Canada have received billions over the last few generations, most of which has come from individual tax payers. We have given to not taken from them in any way. This is root of their social problems and why some in Canada look down at them. By receiving free money just because of their race few have any real idea of its worth. All they know is that the cheque comes at the first of the month no matter what. The money is not earned nor is there any foreseeable end to this free money. Why save? Why work? Without any real responsibilities boredom sets in and so does ways to end the boredom like the kicks from booze, drugs, etc. Natives are no different than anyone else. Can you imagine the problems we'd face if everyone got a cheque every month that paid all their bills? The only reason the percentage of native substance abusers is so high is that such a high percentage of them receives free money every month. All the taxpayers see is their hard earned money distributed to a group who appear to be made up of lazy drug addicted booze hounds. Then it is further rubbed in their faces that this group makes little or no financial contribution to their own existence. Now you see why so many may "look down upon" the natives?
The sooner we put a stop to treating the native population differently the better it will be for everyone , especially the natives.


Actually, I do read every post and follow just about every link - which is more than some posters here do.

How does giving them $10M make them "equal" if the rest of Canadians don't get the same $10M? Somehow, I kinda doubt the country could afford that - or even giving every native that amount each. Wouldn't giving them $10M each mean they were not being treated the same as the rest of us?

I think you are ignoring the fact that the Canadian government created the problems of laziness and addictions. I agree - if we all got free money for nothing every month, we'd have the same problems as the natives have. If we were forbidden to go out to work, forbidden to gather food or to hunt or to even leave our designated to live on reservation land and if we were forced to accept what the government chose to provide for us in order to take our land for their own, then yeah, we'd be just like them. If our government treated us like savages and took our kids away from us in order to re-educate them and beat the Indian out of them, forced their god(s) on them and threatened to keep them away from us permanently in order to make us comply obediently, yeah, I guess we'd probably obey and comply, wouldn't we?

I have said many times in this and other threads that things cannot carry on as they have been. I don't have the answers but I do know it involves education and it involves something to do with working with their addictions - if that's possible. I don't know what to do with all the FAS people or with the elders. They have so many built-in problems now, problems the federal and provincial governments created. Diabetes and malnutrition is also high amongst them.

I know there is corruption and fraud amongst their chiefs and band councilors. That needs to be addressed and money allocated needs to be better tracked and accounted for.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 2nd, 2013, 10:17 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Roadie - you can't move forward in anything unless you understand what has created the problems in the past.

One simply cannot "turn off the tap" to the native people. There has been too much damage done to too many of them for that to work now. You can't swipe their reserves out from under them, bus them all to a city and expect them to all get jobs and to pay taxes. It isn't going to happen. There are too many drug and alcohol addicts, too many FAS people, too many young adults with gang affiliations now. There are too many old folks who would not know how to survive in a city. If you moved them all to one part of a city, you would be creating mini-ghettos of crime and drug dealing.

I understand the problems in the past but problems are supposed to resolve themselves if we work on them,,,
We don't have to shut off the taps but turning them down to a drizzle would be a good idea,,, if we never make an attempt to turn them down we will be stuck paying for this so long our great, great, great grandchildren will feel it and they have less to do with this then we do even,,, it has to come to an end some day or we may as well admit we pay all that money to keep them secluded from us. It's time they were blended into society to give them every opportunity we have and then they wont be thinking they have no rights. They will have the same rights we do (no special ones but all the same as every other Canadian) and they will also have more reason to live, enjoy their accomplishments and become a Canadian as they should, one country one great big happy family of many cultures for once and for all. Trust me, the old way has to end, it's only keeping them limited and secluded
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 2nd, 2013, 10:46 pm

I got an awesome idea,,, why don't we just consider all Canadians, including the natives,,, who have been here 20 years or more a paying Canadian, each adult who has spent 20 years in Canada gets 20 grand a year, if they work then so Beit,,, if they don't then they don't mind living off that money alone,,, If they have one kid and need a little more but---- can't or won't work then we can cover that kid for ten grand till work is found or time is up, kid is 18,,, but no more then one, any extra kids are the parents problem.


No welfare anymore!


Everyone has a right to make more then that by working which will be taxed,,, as far as people coming into the country, they must have a job to come into which will also pay into taxes,,, and once they have paid into 20 years worth, they too will get this 20 grand a year. Basic medical is covered for every Canadian. Bet we save a lot of money. Taxes returned to the government from all those who choose to work will pay it back some and all money left over to the worker will be bonus money for niceties and all the comforts desired. Every Canadian receives a chunk of the wealth this way and they are allowed to bonus that by doing more for extra money. No one will starve and if they do it's their own fault.

No houses are bought or built for anyone,,, we must all rent or own on our money given which will encourage work. the natives can keep their chunks of land, sell it or keep it, what ever they want to do with it. We get no free land so they already have one extra right given and that's it. Live on it, leave it what ever but if they want more money then is given they will have to make the most of that land or live somewhere else and visit that chunk of land on holidays.

This way we all learn to fend for our selves,, have an equal opportunity to better ourselves and any who do are the real winners, those who don't can sit, sleep in, have parties on Wednesday nights if they like, smoke it away or what ever. Equality for all. Share the wealth and make it what you want it to be. No one is left behind.
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:24 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
The free place to live was always substandard. One residential school in the north, at Coppermine (now Nunavut) was in a wood-framed tent and the residents all lived in small wood-framed tents, too - in the cold and snowy northern winters.



What kind of dwelling would they have been living in otherwise?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:26 pm

And if it's still substandard and worth complaining about you'd think a person would do something for themselves to I prove their situation. JMO
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:32 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Actually, I do read every post and follow just about every link - which is more than some posters here do.
So where did you get the idea that I wanted to kick them off their reserve alone and destitute?

How does giving them $10M make them "equal" if the rest of Canadians don't get the same $10M?
Fine then give them nothing. I was trying to make up for all the supposed injustices you all whine about but if you'd rather to see them cut off and poor then that's your choice.
Somehow, I kinda doubt the country could afford that - or even giving every native that amount each. Wouldn't giving them $10M each mean they were not being treated the same as the rest of us?
How much do you think it will cost to service not only the true natives but also the now 1/8 part natives we now allow over the next decade, not including land claims? As I said put it to a vote. Canadians may be as dumb as you profess they are but when shown the cost savings over a decade they'll make the right choice. And maybe there are enough like you who want to see they get nothing and the savings become immeadiate.

I think you are ignoring the fact that the Canadian government created the problems of laziness and addictions. I agree - if we all got free money for nothing every month, we'd have the same problems as the natives have. If we were forbidden to go out to work, forbidden to gather food or to hunt or to even leave our designated to live on reservation land and if we were forced to accept what the government chose to provide for us in order to take our land for their own, then yeah, we'd be just like them. If our government treated us like savages and took our kids away from us in order to re-educate them and beat the Indian out of them, forced their god(s) on them and threatened to keep them away from us permanently in order to make us comply obediently, yeah, I guess we'd probably obey and comply, wouldn't we?
Come on now. They are in no way trapped on their reserves and forbidden to work. When was the last time one of them actually gathered food? We give them money every month to spend where ever they want

I have said many times in this and other threads that things cannot carry on as they have been. I don't have the answers but I do know it involves education and it involves something to do with working with their addictions - if that's possible. I don't know what to do with all the FAS people or with the elders. They have so many built-in problems now, problems the federal and provincial governments created. Diabetes and malnutrition is also high amongst them.
The government didn't create any of their problems. Facilitate them to allow them to create their own problems yes but the creation was all done by themselves.
Free education has been offered to the natives for years but how many take advantage of it? Stop the free money and the addiction rate will drop.


I know there is corruption and fraud amongst their chiefs and band councilors. That needs to be addressed and money allocated needs to be better tracked and accounted for.
Yet they are steadfast on their demand of self government. Just how well is that going so far?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 2nd, 2013, 11:43 pm

I think you are ignoring the fact that the Canadian government created the problems of laziness and addictions.

I don't agree the government created it. Human beings have the ability to survive and if they still choose to survive on less then that's their fault, not to governments fault. If someone offered me some money I would be wondering how this could look better, no one is trapping them up north, their parents should be encouraging them to move on and better themselves. Better yet their band office should be doing that by pushing the young ones towards education and work even if it means putting the money towards a campus living on a trades school somewhere, think about it, a year in school can put a man or woman to work for a life time. All this money that seems to be missing would look good if it sent five young people to a school now wouldn't it? you get a gift and you use it, you regift it, you sell it, you dump it in the basement,,, your choice. You shouldn't look at it as all you got. Make something of it.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Graham Adder » Feb 3rd, 2013, 1:46 am

zzontar wrote:
What kind of dwelling would they have been living in otherwise?

My mother lived in a square log house with dovetailed corners. It was a two story that raised a family with eight kids. Two of those kids were by today's standards adopted.
Where my mother grew up, they didn't consider offering a child that was left without parents as adopting. It was just something you did as a part of your community. There was no label for it. Those children were just brought into the family and raised as a part of it from then on.
One day, when the kids were all gathered for a birthday, along came some white people in shiny cars with a bunch of police pulling up behind them.
By the end of that scene, my grandparents were left with no children and the family was changed forever.
They lived as an integral part of their community.
My mother's family name really meant something before that day.
After that day, more than a few hearts died. A community died. Their family name faded into the grey that became the norm for decades while all of the many thousands of families affected the same had to rebuild what they could.
Their children came back torn, shattered and abused inside and out. You cannot imagine the experiences they had, and you should be grateful for that.
Don't come off like you know what you are talking about when you obviously have no idea.
My mother's family was no more wealthy than any other in their community. They were surrounded by similar homes. Nice homes. Healthy, loving warm homes where children were raised to respect and work together with more than just each other...but with nature.

What kinds of dwelling would they have lived in?
It was a beautifully crafted solid wood hand hewn cedar home with hand turned spindles adorning the stairway up to the kids bedrooms and loft.
It had a welcoming kitchen with the smells of warm bread and sweet baked beans or pastries always emanating from it.
There was a rocker by a large wood burning kitchen stove that heated the house as well as my grandpa's aching joints.

That's all gone now.
Their home was on land that had veins of gold beneath it.
They had the same choice the day their home was taken as they had the day their kids were taken. None.

It didn't take long for my grandfather to hit a bottle after all that. My mother does not recall her father EVER taking a drink until they finally broke him by taking their home.
His murder was never investigated because he was just a drunken Native.
It was documented as a fall accident and that was the end of that.

It was a fantastic dwelling.
But they were just savages.
Right?
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