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Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Graham Adder » Feb 4th, 2013, 2:27 pm

cv23 wrote: Except for the fact he has lived it everyday of his life.

Graham Adder wrote:Really?
How so?
Show me where he has lived with poverty on keel with third world conditions?
Show me where he has witnessed family members being torn from loved ones by "officials"?
Show me what lands he has had taken from him because of mineral rights, regardless of the thousands of years of traditional use to his close people.

Show me a shred of what it takes to speak from a position of knowing first hand.

If you can't deliver, then I'll know how to judge your posts without doubt.

Garbage.

If you can't deliver, then I'll know how to judge your posts without doubt.


cv...you're failing miserably.
Is this a pattern in your life?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:06 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Perhaps Mr Sowan is equally ignorant? .

So ignorance is the latest excuse?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:09 pm

Several questions have been posed to you Graham yet you try to deflect rather than answer/deliver.
Kind of makes people wonder just who's post may be the "garbage" here.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zookeeper » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:16 pm

Roadster wrote:To be honest,,, I don't know my neighbors two doors down,,, don't have to. I don't even know my neighbors next door... It gives me piece of mind knowing they don't have a special interest in what I am doing in my yard cos they really don't know me and likely don't care,



And your special interest in people a 3 days drive from here is? and what they do in their back yard? Before you answer that keep in mind that the road to your house is paved with tax dollars.


I do have friends across the city, friends several blocks away and friends out of town a few miles away that can see me or I can see them when ever we want. That's the beauty of having room to room (roam?) off the property and even out of the community, a mile or two away, ten miles away, where on reserves of 300 houses the whole tiny little town is your neighbor,,,


Lol. You don't know who lives next door to you but apparently they know someone 150 houses away from them? As for the rest, lol again, they don't have their feet cemented to the ground.

It is their home, and you really don't know them, so why do you care?
As for "nice things", possessions don't define who you are.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:40 pm

grammafreddy wrote:My grandson is a full status Cree, never lived on the reserve and has no concept of any aboriginal history. Perhaps Mr Sowan is equally ignorant? Just because someone is full status, it doesn't make them knowledgeable.


That would be someones fault but not the governments fault. I know many natives who live off reserve and not only could tell all the stories but they even carve in their traditional ways, have native items decorating their homes, talking sticks, drums, cool blankets saved through the family ceremonial events that are still held. I even have a talking stick, it was traded for goods in my store, I have a peace pipe made of an animals jaw bone,,, it looks much cooler then it sounds. Where did this stuff come from if these people don't know their backgrounds? And why was this stuff traded to me as was traditionally done so many years back? Because people still do what was done many years back, even off reserve. I did not go onto a reserve and rob these items off anyone. My items are cool and when a native person sees them they comment what nice work those pieces are.
Just like my family,,, we were allow to learn all we wanted about our backgrounds and in a white man's situation there could in most cases be two backgrounds to learn, like mine for instance, Scottish on one side and Norwegian on the other. Our family was into pictures from way back and those were saved from what was called by them,,, the old country. I have heard many stories from native friends about their backgrounds and am not shy to listen and ask questions either. Didn't have to go to a reserve to hear it. One guy I know used to sit back with us and some beer and start yaking about his early days on the res and stuff he knew about his family and background, it was quite interesting and even funny because he had a way of talking to entertain.
If someone, anyone looses their ties with the family or its history they were either adopted or the elderly in their family didn't care to push it, has nothing to do with where they live. Our family tree is done with a hand made history book done by my uncle and a few others covering back as far as they could go about our family clan. It was recommended by family we go to the family home land and so I did... Very cool, saw where my family came from before coming to Canada. Must I live there? No,,, My nephew has been to the homeland twice, he owns a full kilt and caboodle traditional dress kit,,, why would a native kid living in his same country loose everything by not living on a reserve?
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:54 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Perhaps Mr Sowan is equally ignorant? .

cv23 wrote:So ignorance is the latest excuse?


Fercrissakes.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

What I meant was that if he was not raised on a reserve, did not get sent to a residential school, has no knowledge of life for others who were raised on reserves and who did get sent to residential schools, then he might just be considered ignorant of the way of life for those other people. And I think you know that's what I meant, too. If he has no knowledge of that, then IMO he is not qualified to speak for them or to even suggest what they may or may not want or should have or not have. His full status pertains to his family (either maternal or paternal depending on the band and nation) history - and not to whether he ever lived on a reserve or had anything to do with a reserve.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 4th, 2013, 3:59 pm

grammafreddy wrote:My grandson is a full status Cree, never lived on the reserve and has no concept of any aboriginal history. Perhaps Mr Sowan is equally ignorant? Just because someone is full status, it doesn't make them knowledgeable.

Roadster wrote:That would be someones fault but not the governments fault.


I never said it was anyone's fault - did I?

It was made as a statement of fact that just because someone says they are full status Indian, it doesn't mean they know anything about the history or what life is like for those who are living on the reserves - way back then or now. It doesn't mean Mr Sowan is qualified to speak on behalf of any native person just because he says he is a full status Cree.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:01 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Fercrissakes.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

What I meant was that if he was not raised on a reserve, did not get sent to a residential school, has no knowledge of life for others who were raised on reserves and who did get sent to residential schools, then he might just be considered ignorant of the way of life for those other people. And I think you know that's what I meant, too. If he has no knowledge of that, then IMO he is not qualified to speak for them or to even suggest what they may or may not want or should have or not have. His full status pertains to his family (either maternal or paternal depending on the band and nation) history - and not to whether he ever lived on a reserve or had anything to do with a reserve.

See, I am gonna call Bullpuckie on this,,, as I said above living there is not the only way to learn enough about the homeland life to speak of it, if it was we'd all have a right to have someone pay us to go live in our homelands.
I know lots who can tell great stories they were taught about the old days and how things were and are... Elders, books, family carrying on traditional ceremonies,,, they do still happen.
How do you think all the Europeans have survived while not living on their homelands and how did they pass on their stories if not living there?
I have seen my clan statues, where they stand today and our history, but I don't live there. I even have our clan badges old and the newer ones.
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:08 pm

grammafreddy wrote:
I never said it was anyone's fault - did I?

It was made as a statement of fact that just because someone says they are full status Indian, it doesn't mean they know anything about the history or what life is like for those who are living on the reserves - way back then or now. It doesn't mean Mr Sowan is qualified to speak on behalf of any native person just because he says he is a full status Cree.

Sure he is if he took the time to learn and understand it and especially if he was educated by family,,, Do you mean to tell me a historian who never lived where he speaks of has no right or ability to educate us too then? They often talk of places they Don't live but are quite interested in and have studied. How about all those documentaries where people take us on a tour of how life is in say Africa,,,? Quick, someone write National Geographic and tell them to stop, they have lied to me all my childhood years,,, they know nothing,,,

But seriously GF, you don't have to live somewhere to be knowledgeable about it.
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:14 pm

grammafreddy wrote:What I meant was that if he was not raised on a reserve, did not get sent to a residential school, has no knowledge of life for others who were raised on reserves and who did get sent to residential schools, then he might just be considered ignorant of the way of life for those other people. And I think you know that's what I meant, too. If he has no knowledge of that, then IMO he is not qualified to speak for them or to even suggest what they may or may not want or should have or not have. His full status pertains to his family (either maternal or paternal depending on the band and nation) history - and not to whether he ever lived on a reserve or had anything to do with a reserve.

So what you are saying is that only those who actually lived the supposed abuse know enough about it to make relevant comments.
Did you get sent to a residential school? Were you raised on a reserve? Might you also be considered ignorant of the way of life of those people? Kind of makes all that you have posted here irrelevant doesn't it?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:15 pm

grammafreddy wrote:My grandson is a full status Cree, never lived on the reserve and has no concept of any aboriginal history.

Lady tehMa wrote:Just curious, but why would that be? :137: I'm just a full Canadian mongrel, and my parents made sure I was acquainted with the history of each portion of my ethnic makeup (and there are a few).


He is just a kid yet. He knows he is a full status Cree, he knows his dad and his dad teaches him some of the native Cree ways and language but the history of the government vs natives has so far not been part of his heritage education. He hasn't been to his reservation because it is a northern Alberta one, so is a long way from here but he has seen pictures of it.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby cv23 » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:22 pm

grammafreddy wrote:It doesn't mean Mr Sowan is qualified to speak on behalf of any native person just because he says he is a full status Cree.

If being a full status native doesn't qualify a person to speak on native issues what exactly does?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:25 pm

cv23 wrote:So what you are saying is that only those who actually lived the supposed abuse know enough about it to make relevant comments.
Did you get sent to a residential school? Were you raised on a reserve? Might you also be considered ignorant of the way of life of those people? Kind of makes all that you have posted here irrelevant doesn't it?


Not necessarily. And I did say maybe - not for positive.

grammafreddy wrote:My grandson is a full status Cree, never lived on the reserve and has no concept of any aboriginal history. Perhaps Mr Sowan is equally ignorant? Just because someone is full status, it doesn't make them knowledgeable.


His parents may have been some of the residential school kids who had the Indian beaten out of them, the Bible beaten into them, and may have left the reserve because they did not fit in there any more - and that was not uncommon, either. Many kids came back from the schools and felt no sense of place or family any more - they were stuck in "no man's land" - neither Indian or white.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Roadster » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:26 pm

So really it's looking like the native person must live on his land to understand and remain a true native,,, for what reason I am not sure but I think in this case the Canadian government should send me back to Scotland and pay me while I remain a member of my family roots and homeland, bloodlines and all that... Asking too much? Well sure but really I say again,,, those people are being held there by us. If they ever had reason to leave and experience what's beyond the res fence lines for real they might never live on the res again,,, might visit every summer like we do our parents. My parents are on the island,,, who will pay me to live near them so I can understand? Really, don't anyone offer me that, I hate the island,,, its like another place of limits,,, you gotta pay them ever rising ferry dues to come off and see past the water line onto the mainland. I will not be trapped by fencings, water or a wall of any kind for any money. I have been all over Canada and retain the right to live where ever I like in Canada still,,, not that I would really leave the Okanagan now tho,,, :dyinglaughing:
If I won the lottery I would take each and every one of you to a secluded island in the sea for the biggest party you have ever known. One way. Those of you who love me when you find your way back would be my friends.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Feb 4th, 2013, 4:28 pm

grammafreddy wrote:It doesn't mean Mr Sowan is qualified to speak on behalf of any native person just because he says he is a full status Cree.

cv23 wrote:If being a full status native doesn't qualify a person to speak on native issues what exactly does?


That would be the same as Roadie saying Scottish people shouldn't wear kilts any more if they don't live in Scotland and play the bagpipes.

Edited to add ...

Each Indian nation is different from other nations. Cree people are different than Haida people - different language, different traditions, different tipis, different clothing and moccasin styles. The Cree do not tell the Haida how to live and this guy Sowan has no right to tell other Indian people how they should live. It is fine for him to do what he feels is right for him - but to say that ALL native people should adopt the ways he has is just wrong and will never be accepted by other nations or even any other Indian if that's not what they feel is best for them.

No chief can speak for another, either. That's why there is not just one all-powerful chief. Each nation has their own "government" which is like each is their own country. That's why they are called Nations and why treaties had to be signed with individual nations and chiefs.
Last edited by grammafreddy on Feb 4th, 2013, 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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