thou shalt not kill

Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby mexi cali » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:14 am

normaM wrote:no hang fire Alan
"The evidence supporting the hang-fire theory was weak. It amounted to little more than anecdotal evidence to the effect that "hang fires happen." There was no statistical evidence on the incidence rate of hang fires, either among firearms generally or among the particular make and model of pistol used by the defendant. The Crown's firearms expert suggested that hang fires are rare and that such delays in firing are quite short – certainly, much shorter than Mr. Stanley's testimony would indicate."


I have experienced a hang fire, or as I used to call it, fire in the hole. When a bullet that should have fired doesn't, it is a tense few moments as you try to decide if the load was a dud or just taking its time.

HAng fires may be rare but they happen.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby W105 » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:17 am

actually the driver of the SUV (he also was the one who tried to start the ATV) finally admitted that he used it to break into another vehicle from another farm...he then said he threw it in the back of the SUV..as to how it ended up around Colten was maybe one of the 2 girls in the back threw it up there ?? who knows ??

Stanley had no idea there was a weapon in the SUV...he apparently believed the threat was the actual SUV..he said himself that he saw on the news many times people drive into a crowds to kill them..

(all my info is creds to reddit posters btw)
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby normaM » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:18 am

Not quite Gordon, Lawyers can stop ppl from sitting on the Jury
" peremptory challenges, a tool that allows both the Crown and the defence to reject potential jurors without any explanation. In the Boushie trial, the defence counsel blocked as many as five jurors who appeared to be Indigenous, leaving an all-white jury."
of course we have the right to be tried by a Jury of our Peers, and I imagine white farmers would be considered Mr Stanley's peers.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Osoyoos_Familyof4 » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:20 am

The legal definition of "peers" is not "everyone like you" but "everyone equal to you"
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby mexi cali » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:21 am

JayByrd wrote:Why? So we can all feel a little better about his death?

It seems like he was no angel, and most definitely up to no good on the day this happened. He didn't deserve to die though.

Besides, this wasn't an act of violence, just a tragic accident. Right? Gerald Stanley was just trying to scare some punks off his property, not kill them. Right?


And the Stanleys didn't deserve to be put in the position where they felt threatened by univited intruders.

How hard is it to understand that when you threaten people, often the result is that you may wind up seriously hurt or possibly dead?

Please tell me that you aren't going to use the fact that they were drunk as an excuse for their actions? Or that they are disenfranchised citizens?

The choice they made was conscious and had consequences.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby mexi cali » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:25 am

Ka-El wrote:
Rider59 wrote: What a load of crap excuses. Why do you feel the need to defend criminal punks just because of their skin color or background? Crime is crime.

I am not defending the boys for trespassing on the farmer’s property. The fact you would suggest that shows just how completely you have missed any point I made. I entered this conversation by presenting laws that already exist under our Criminal Code and implying some question as to whether those laws were being tested correctly in this case – with no mention of race. I’ve never been a supporter of vigilante justice. The law might not be perfect, but it is far preferable to having everyone take the law into their own hands. Where will it end? That was the direction I was going to start with.

This was not vigilante justice. Had it been, Stanley is in jail. This was self defense or preservation if you like.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Osoyoos_Familyof4 » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:32 am

I know I can find this if I look, but does anyone have a really good link that has an actual blow by blow account of what came out in trial that is easy to read and succinct? Not opinion, just what happened according to the prosecution and defendants?

Thanks.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Ka-El » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:37 am

GordonH wrote: Of course there is absolutely no way of knowing the race of the people selected randomly to be in the pool of possible jury members. That is whole thing about having random selection.

From what I understand from watching various news stories, random selection of jury candidates is drawn from a pool of people listed in Saskatchewan's health care system. Aboriginals living on reserves are excluded from that.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Ka-El » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:38 am

mexi cali wrote: This was self defense or preservation if you like.

Could be, and the Criminal Code allows for that:

section 37.(1) of the Criminal Code specifies “everyone is justified in using force to defend himself or anyone under his protection from assault, if he uses no more force than necessary to prevent the assault or the repetition of it.

More specific to matters concerning the protection of property, section 41.(1) states “everyone who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling house or real property, and everyone lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using force to prevent any person from trespassing on the dwelling house or real property, or to remove a trespasser therefrom, if he uses no more force than necessary.”

However, I’m not so sure this is so cut and dry in this case. As Norma has pointed out, there are some questions that have still not been answered (here anyway). For example, “why if Mr Stanley was so fearful he approached the vehicle with an unloaded gun?”
Last edited by Ka-El on Feb 13th, 2018, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Osoyoos_Familyof4 » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:41 am

Ka-El wrote:
GordonH wrote: Of course there is absolutely no way of knowing the race of the people selected randomly to be in the pool of possible jury members. That is whole thing about having random selection.

From what I understand from watching various news stories, random selection of jury candidates is drawn from a pool of people listed in Saskatchewan's health care system. Aboriginals living on reserves are excluded from that.


Is this true? Holy crap if true, that is loco!

And do Natives not have the same healthcare cards in any province as anyone else? I don't know anything about that, I just assumed they did.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby Ka-El » Feb 13th, 2018, 11:44 am

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote: And do Natives not have the same healthcare cards in any province as anyone else?

Apparently not in Saskatchewan according the news story I saw last night.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby GordonH » Feb 13th, 2018, 12:08 pm

GordonH wrote: Of course there is absolutely no way of knowing the race of the people selected randomly to be in the pool of possible jury members. That is whole thing about having random selection.

Ka-El wrote:From what I understand from watching various news stories, random selection of jury candidates is drawn from a pool of people listed in Saskatchewan's health care system. Aboriginals living on reserves are excluded from that.


If that's the case then those who do the selections (usually Sheriffs department), should add into that pool/database both Provincial & Federal voters lists.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby alanjh595 » Feb 13th, 2018, 12:26 pm

Osoyoos_Familyof4 wrote:I know I can find this if I look, but does anyone have a really good link that has an actual blow by blow account of what came out in trial that is easy to read and succinct? Not opinion, just what happened according to the prosecution and defendants?

Thanks.



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e37929427/
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby mexi cali » Feb 13th, 2018, 12:47 pm

A couple things; first, to the "if he was so fearful, why did he" question. At the point that he decided to eject the magazine, he may have felt that the imminent danger was over which was why he approached the vehicle with the intent to remove the keys which would obviously make it so the intruders couldn't get away. If we accept his story regarding the misfire, those actions support that.

Reagrding the jury selection; someone posted a great article that spoke to that. It basically said that there were several natives (I have heard as many as 14?) present for the process but they were dismissed as was the defenses right to do so. The reason for the dismissal, at least according to the person who wrote the article, was that there was talk amongst the native candidates about Stanley which led to their dismissal due to them not meeting the impartiality requirement and that there were white candidates who were dismissed for the same reasons.
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Re: thou shalt not kill

Postby blueliner » Feb 13th, 2018, 12:49 pm

from another source

Chris Carnell
12 hrs ·
What is a national shame is when Alfred Wagner of Bonnyville, AB was murdered in his home by thieves who came onto his land to steal a pick-up truck.
What's a national shame is when an elderly woman from Debden, SK is beaten with a wooden baseball bat in her own home by thieves.
What's a national shame is when Kirk DeSchryver from Denzil, SK is ran over twice by thieves on his farm who were there to steal his ATV.
What's a national shame is when Ian Thompson's Port Colborne, ONT farmhouse is firebombed with maltov cocktails by tresspassers.
What's a national shame is when at 2 am a pregnant mother near Hardisty, AB hears her vehicle start up on her farm she goes out to investigate and has a loaded gun pointed at her as the thieves leave her property.

What is a national shame is that people living in rural areas have to fear for their lives when they hear a vehicle roll up on their driveway. Is this someone looking for help, is this a friend, or is this someone here to steal your stuff, burn your house down, assualt you, ram you with a vehicle, trash your property or even murder you?

What is a national shame is when a man doing some daily chores with his son on his farm is forced to defend his family and his home when a vehicle with 5 black-out drunk violent thieves with a loaded weapon, on a crime spree involving multiple victims decide to come on to his property, ram his vehicles, attempt to steal property and use their vehicle to try and hit the people living there.

What is a national shame is when the media and politicians then use the dead criminal as a prop to further divide a country, to race bait, to demonize rural citizens, to decieve, to try and distract from the actual problem of unchecked rural crime, to promote an atmosphere tense with fear and anger, to shut down any discussion by calling people racist.

In any of those situations who would hesitate to defend their family by any means necessary? If we stop looking at this issue through a coloured lense we can see the problem for what it truly is.

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