Is the NDP the best choice for managing our money?

[Glacier]

http://www.progressive-economics.ca/201 ... l-parties/

[NAB]

Seems to me there is something important missing in that comparison. Level of taxation by each? Anyone can get deficits down if you tax people enough.

Nab

[Captain Awesome]

It also might mean that traditionally people turn to Conservative govt when things get tight with money.

[steven lloyd]

To be clear, I am personally hoping for a Conservative majority after this next election – economic recovery, stability and growth only being one reason; international political credibility another. It is interesting to note, however, that in both the US and Canada it has repeatedly been shown that in spite of whatever spin or rhetoric is employed, the real numbers demonstrate that historically the more left wing governments have, in fact, been more fiscally responsible than the right wing governments. That’s kind of interesting I think.

Damn. If only Cullen hadn’t proposed we ban tanker traffic from our coast.

[Bagotricks]

To be clear, I am personally hoping for a Conservative majority after this next election – economic recovery, stability and growth only being one reason; international political credibility another. It is interesting to note, however, that in both the US and Canada it has repeatedly been shown that in spite of whatever spin or rhetoric is employed, the real numbers demonstrate that historically the more left wing governments have, in fact, been more fiscally responsible than the right wing governments. That’s kind of interesting I think.

Damn. If only Cullen hadn’t proposed we ban tanker traffic from our coast.

Not being a economist, studied political scientist or pundit - I respect this post Steven.

I'm big on historical prediction. History repeats itself and tells us all about the future. If I thought that voting right was the best thing, Id do so. I look at facts, the cycle. Republican/Conservative debts, Democratic/Lefty clean up the mess. The message is quite the opposite though. Its always high tax reckless debt lefties and low tax responsible righties. History says otherwise. Socially - god - no point in even mentioning it. Who has consistently been on the wrong side of the fence?

Im voting for trickle up. Your voting for trickle down. Agree to disagree but are not blind to facts.

Also - I am confused by your enthusiasm for tankers/pipeline. I know your informed, but I dont understand your stance perhaps. I know its good for the economy, but can you agree that its not if - but when it spills, it will really screw that whole area up? Gulf of Mexico? ect ect. Just wondering about that. Im not ridiculously enviro, but cant deny ( back to historical prediction ) that we will screw the area up eventually if we steer tankers and oil bladders through there, right?

[Bagotricks]

Anyone can get deficits down if you tax people enough.

Nab

Deficits? I thought we were talking about fiscally responsible Conserv...oh wait. The numbers.

[NAB]

Looks to me like the topic has to do with budgetary balance, surplus, and/or deficits. Of course, the NDP have never been in government federally so we don't know (yet) how they might deal with areas of federal fiscal responsibility. But the fact remains that fiscal balance, surplus, or deficit have to do with how much you spend versus how much you tax to cover the expenditures (and who you tax). Income versus outgo, just like we have to deal with in our individual lives. It also has to do with how much you borrow (debt creation) to defer expenses on to the backs of future generations in order to make yourself look good now. It even has to do with what you neglect (in terms of physical infrastructure that can keep pace with growing populations for example). It's the socialist way. And all one has to do is visit many countries that have operated under socialism or communism for more than a few decades and not done it right to see it's result. Crumbling living standards and infrastructure, rot and pollution, ...and endless corruption and petty crime.

I hope that is not is what is being proposed we put in place for our kids and grandkids. Then again, perhaps that is already underway in Canada and has been for at least 4 or 5 decades, ...and we are merely trying to help it along so to get there faster.

Nab

[steven lloyd]

Im voting for trickle up. Your voting for trickle down.

Not so. That’s too simple an understanding, and thus, quite inaccurate.

- I am confused by your enthusiasm for tankers/pipeline.

I don’t have time to get into it right now Bago. Gotta go, but this topic has been discussed at some length throughout these threads - and somewhat off topic here. I’ll just leave you with a few points:

• Global energy superpower (currently not although that may surprise some)
• An extra $270 Billion annually to our GDP
• Tens of thousands of new direct jobs
• Tens of thousands of new indirect jobs and economic spin-offs
• Major impact on elimination of poverty in north and northwest
• Huge increased tax revenues to fund social programs (eg. health & education)
• Huge increased tax revenues to effectively fund R&D into alternative energy sources


It can be done safely. There is enough money involved to make it worth the while that money is spent so it be done safely. For every challenge there is a solution. I don’t want to grow my own food and live in a wood-heated cabin.

Short version. Gotta go.

[Corneliousrooster]

Of course, the NDP have never been in government federally so we don't know (yet) how they might deal with areas of federal fiscal responsibility.

Wow - so how have you come to your definitive stance against all things NDP in terms of federal politics? Provincially (from the graphs shown) they are MORE fiscally responsible than the other parties DESPITE the socialist taxation you keep referring to as the end game that would be the ruin of Canada.

You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform - then when someone posts something showing that NDP as a party outperform both their federal rivals on the provincial level - than you say "we just don't know yet on a federal level"???

you will NEVER know unless a new approach is taken -

i love how a country severely in debt both governmentally and personally are afraid to change course on a gov't that both types have debt have continued to increase under (even after 3 swings at the plate) how many chances do we need to give these conservatives a chance at bat when they have proven time and time again that they can not run (or choose not to run)a gov't in a minority? And the Canadian people refuse to give them the support for a majority?

5 years bangin our collective heads on the same walls - time for a new wall IMO

[Oxl3y]

I voted for Layton because he is charismatic and has a mustache, and I'm sick of a wiener running this country. For better or worse I just want a change I think the NDP could provide that and my gut tells me it will be a positive change.

[Static]

I will leave Canada if the NDP get into federal power. They destroyed BC and will do the same fo Canada. Canadians need to get their heads out of the sand.

[Oxl3y]

I will leave Canada if the NDP get into federal power. They destroyed BC and will do the same fo Canada. Canadians need to get their heads out of the sand.

And the Liberals destroyed BC and the Conservatives destroyed Canada... I'm sick of the normal players having a say in this its time for something new and that won't be green so let's go NDP!

[NAB]

Of course, the NDP have never been in government federally so we don't know (yet) how they might deal with areas of federal fiscal responsibility.

Wow - so how have you come to your definitive stance against all things NDP in terms of federal politics? Provincially (from the graphs shown) they are MORE fiscally responsible than the other parties DESPITE the socialist taxation you keep referring to as the end game that would be the ruin of Canada.

You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform - then when someone posts something showing that NDP as a party outperform both their federal rivals on the provincial level - than you say "we just don't know yet on a federal level"???

you will NEVER know unless a new approach is taken -

i love how a country severely in debt both governmentally and personally are afraid to change course on a gov't that both types have debt have continued to increase under (even after 3 swings at the plate) how many chances do we need to give these conservatives a chance at bat when they have proven time and time again that they can not run (or choose not to run)a gov't in a minority? And the Canadian people refuse to give them the support for a majority?

5 years bangin our collective heads on the same walls - time for a new wall IMO

Actually cornelius, if you took the time to read carefully and completely, and understand what you read, you would know that I am NOT against ALL things NDP, federally or otherwise. I am however very much FOR the Conservatives to get a majority this time because I am totally tired of constant Liberal inspired dysfunctional Parliament, and very much AGAINST Ignatieff and the Liberals ever getting their hands on the levers of power again.

Is that clear enough for you, or do I have to try again?

Nab

[Corneliousrooster]

Of course, the NDP have never been in government federally so we don't know (yet) how they might deal with areas of federal fiscal responsibility.

Wow - so how have you come to your definitive stance against all things NDP in terms of federal politics? Provincially (from the graphs shown) they are MORE fiscally responsible than the other parties DESPITE the socialist taxation you keep referring to as the end game that would be the ruin of Canada.

You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform - then when someone posts something showing that NDP as a party outperform both their federal rivals on the provincial level - than you say "we just don't know yet on a federal level"???

you will NEVER know unless a new approach is taken -

i love how a country severely in debt both governmentally and personally are afraid to change course on a gov't that both types have debt have continued to increase under (even after 3 swings at the plate) how many chances do we need to give these conservatives a chance at bat when they have proven time and time again that they can not run (or choose not to run)a gov't in a minority? And the Canadian people refuse to give them the support for a majority?

5 years bangin our collective heads on the same walls - time for a new wall IMO

Actually cornelius, if you took the time to read carefully and completely, and understand what you read, you would know that I am NOT against ALL things NDP, federally or otherwise. I am however very much FOR the Conservatives to get a majority this time because I am totally tired of constant Liberal inspired dysfunctional Parliament, and very much AGAINST Ignatieff and the Liberals ever getting their hands on the levers of power again.

Is that clear enough for you, or do I have to try again?

Nab

i said "You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform"

because you said for the millionth time - "we just don't know yet on a federal level"

which is because they have NEVER had the opportunity to succeed or fail so your entire argument is based on speculation and bias

Its pretty CLEAR where you stand Nab so no need to try again - there are ample pages of evidence as to where you stand ). While we are here though, just what are the NDP initiatives and policies you DO SUPPORT, since it would have been outlandish for me to insinuate your disdain for "all things NDP"?

[NAB]

Of course, the NDP have never been in government federally so we don't know (yet) how they might deal with areas of federal fiscal responsibility.

Wow - so how have you come to your definitive stance against all things NDP in terms of federal politics? Provincially (from the graphs shown) they are MORE fiscally responsible than the other parties DESPITE the socialist taxation you keep referring to as the end game that would be the ruin of Canada.

You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform - then when someone posts something showing that NDP as a party outperform both their federal rivals on the provincial level - than you say "we just don't know yet on a federal level"???

you will NEVER know unless a new approach is taken -

i love how a country severely in debt both governmentally and personally are afraid to change course on a gov't that both types have debt have continued to increase under (even after 3 swings at the plate) how many chances do we need to give these conservatives a chance at bat when they have proven time and time again that they can not run (or choose not to run)a gov't in a minority? And the Canadian people refuse to give them the support for a majority?

5 years bangin our collective heads on the same walls - time for a new wall IMO

Actually cornelius, if you took the time to read carefully and completely, and understand what you read, you would know that I am NOT against ALL things NDP, federally or otherwise. I am however very much FOR the Conservatives to get a majority this time because I am totally tired of constant Liberal inspired dysfunctional Parliament, and very much AGAINST Ignatieff and the Liberals ever getting their hands on the levers of power again.

Is that clear enough for you, or do I have to try again?

Nab

i said "You villainize the NDP and layton for their fiscal irresponsibillity based on NDP platform"

because you said for the millionth time - "we just don't know yet on a federal level"

which is because they have NEVER had the opportunity to succeed or fail so your entire argument is based on speculation and bias

Its pretty CLEAR where you stand Nab so no need to try again - there are ample pages of evidence as to where you stand ). While we are here though, just what are the NDP initiatives and policies you DO SUPPORT, since it would have been outlandish for me to insinuate your disdain for "all things NDP"?

Well, since you asked nicely, I don't see how saying we don't know something yet is villainizing the NDP or Layton, but if you wish to take it that way I have no control over that. But there is ample evidence from all quarters to suggest that their platform related spending is simply missleading and not possible and, if they get a chance to implement it (which they won't) would produce that fiscal nightmare so many are worried about.

As for what I do support, a number of things actually (just mainly not their taxing and spending plans associated with them). I guess my biggy as I have said many times I support their idea that further tax reductions for corporations should be put on hold so long as we remain competitive with other jusrisdictions (but do not support their plan to raise them). I think also they have to be careful about how they would handle their proposal of cutting subsidies to corporations like big oil.

Other than that, I totally disagree with things like Cap n Trade or Carbon tax approaches in an attempt to solve environmental issues, mainly because something like 98% of the global problems are outside Canada and not within our jurisdiction. I have written extensively about that and believe the Conservatives program is the best out there right now. It is the same reason I oppose the provincial Liberals carbon tax or the NDP Cap n Trade thrust here in BC - it's just a cash grab with no impact on the real problems.

There's probably more on both the positive and negative sides, but those are my main concerns. Trouble is, many (most) of Layton's ideas, while I support the need for them, are simply unaffordable right now.

Nab