Bus beheader gets escorted day trips

[Trunk-Monkey]

In see where you are both coming from, however I do not see how any police officer could help but have personal feelings that would at some time, under some circumstance would not conflict with their job. That also goes for social workers and many other professions who work with the public day in and day out. I'm sure Steven would say he runs into that (I could be wrong). You just have to know what is expected of you and take that road no matter what your true feelings are. I can't imagine a cop without personal feelings and I doubt we would want him to be a cop.

Smurf you are correct to a certain degree IMO. Cops use compassion and descretion on a regular basis...I mean we are all human. Seperating the human side of the job and the reality of what is happening is not always that easy but its something that has to be done. I can say this tho...many people say this person is just "sick" and I believe he is..."sick" that is...just dont pawn all of the sick ppl onto the criminal justice system. I agree with BOT here...the way we take care of our mentally ill in this country is horrible. But to let this guy out on passes where he could reoffend again in a similar way....and then start the entire process over again..I do not agree with.

[Trunk-Monkey]

You actually came very close to coming right out and identifying where these systems (mental health, forensics and criminal justice) fail and are underfunded, which ironically is exactly what the so-called uber-left researchers and analysts have identified. Then you dismissed your own insight as “uber-left bleat”. As governments cut keep cutting positions of the “actual worker bees” they say we can’t afford (possibly because of ill-advised tax cuts) and the inevitable crisis’s and tragedies continue to occur due to increases in already massive and unmanageable caseloads, their response has been to hire more managers and bureaucrats and appoint more deputy ministers to study the problem when all they have ever had to really do is support the people who are already doing the real difficult work.

Contrary to some of the opinions expressed in various threads across this board, these people (mental health workers, forensic case workers, probation officers, etc.) didn’t pursue this very challenging type of work because it meant having a “cushy” (LOLOL) union job. Quite the contrary, in fact. And in spite of the challenges we face every day working with this very difficult client type, one of the biggest challenges we face is working under and within a highly inefficient and top heavy bureaucracy that starts at the party in power (larger under the BC Liberals than any previous government).

Does it cost money to hire more workers? Well of course it does. Does it cost money to get regular oil changes in your brand new car? What happens when we don’t do that? There are some things we need to collectively spend money on for the overall safety and well-being of our communities and society as a whole. Obviously no system will be perfect, but we could be doing far better than we are and we are not really saving any money by not doing so (and we don’t need any more managers, bureaucrats or to appoint any more deputy ministers to study the problem). Maybe you think these issues, challenges and risks could be more effectively addressed by the private sector in a for-profit model. How would that work do you think?

I would suggest our current efforts at saving cost are actually increasing societal costs – and risk. For example, I know that we are spending huge dollars right now in some areas hiring and training people to replace the already trained and experienced people we lost during the reckless cuts made earlier. These people cannot yet fully do the work as they are still being trained and we are paying huge dollars in overtime to people who are both training new hires and still managing huge caseloads (we stopped doing the freebie stuff because the government wouldn’t acknowledge a problem existed until they actually had to start paying overtime and start re-hiring). Add to that the backlogs in the Courts that have been created over the last ten years, criminals walking free because of lack of due process and mentally disordered offenders slipping through the government created cracks in the system and more innocent victims. This is the reality. Is this something we want to collectively acknowledge and address, or do we still want to pretend this is all some kind of unionist ploy (union spin and blarney ) to increase membership?

To the thread topic, there is no way to explain (to those who would choose to not even try and understand) what kind of psychotic hell schizophrenics live with inside their minds. I can’t presume to actually know myself, but I have done enough work with them to formulate a pretty good idea (note also that while only about ten percent of schizophrenics become criminally violent, that is the sub group I exclusively come across in my work). Could this tragedy have been prevented? While there are no guarantees I can guarantee you a much better job could have been done in monitoring and managing this man’s behaviour in the community were resources not stretched so thin, and no number of extra managers, bureaucrats or additional deputy ministers studying the problem would have made the difference that a few extra worker-bees might have.

Is this man criminally responsible for his actions? Sorry folks but not a chance. Again, there is no way to explain this (to those who would choose to not even try and understand) but his brain is “broken”. Does that mean I think he should get a free pass? No – this man is dangerous and will need to be monitored 24/7 for the rest of his life. It is not his fault he is so dangerous, but that doesn’t change the fact he is and will always remain potentially so.

Well said Steven...prob the best thing I have read on here...

[WhatThe]

Ok, fair enough Trunk.... But he's escorted so if he forgets or stops taking his medication.. ..what's the problem?

[Lady tehMa]

Does that mean I think he should get a free pass? No – this man is dangerous and will need to be monitored 24/7 for the rest of his life. It is not his fault he is so dangerous, but that doesn’t change the fact he is and will always remain potentially so.

I believe that "monitored" should be "contained". The former means that the man will be at large, whereas the latter would be safer for the general populace.

[Trunk-Monkey]

Ok, fair enough Trunk.... But he's escorted so if he forgets or stops taking his medication.. ..what's the problem?

The problem is this...this all costs a lot of money. The medical health care system is broken when it comes to the mentally ill. The last thing it needs is to be drained of resources that could be used to assist other metally ill. The day passes etc will add up to a ton of dough.

[WhatThe]

The problem is this...this all costs a lot of money. The medical health care system is broken when it comes to the mentally ill. The last thing it needs is to be drained of resources that could be used to assist other metally ill. The day passes etc will add up to a ton of dough.

so, based on what would probably amount to little money (since the escorts are being paid anyway during their shift I would assume) you would deny a mans right to healthcare (locking them up makes people go crazy and part of his recovery will be to lead as normal a life a possible.) especially since he's not criminally responsible.

The moment we base who has civil rights on an amount of money we are no longer a free and democratic society that respects or understands those rights.

And one of the best things to do for for mental health budgets? Stop incarcerating people for having a mental health disorder known as addiction and offer them proper help an treatment.

[Trunk-Monkey]

so, based on what would probably amount to little money (since the escorts are being paid anyway during their shift I would assume) you would deny a mans right to healthcare (locking them up makes people go crazy and part of his recovery will be to lead as normal a life a possible.) especially since he's not criminally responsible.

The moment we base who has civil rights on an amount of money we are no longer a free and democratic society that respects or understands those rights.

And one of the best things to do for for mental health budgets? Stop incarcerating people for having a mental health disorder known as addiction and offer them proper help an treatment.

You completely missed my point...just because the workers are being paid already doesnt make his day trips cheap...they are now tied up dealing with him instead of dealing with someone who can or will actually get out and be mixed back into society, hense slowing down the entire system. Metal health patients who are deemed metally ill and not criminally responsibie more often than not spend way more time in the system then they would have if they were not mentally ill.
Incarcerating someone for being addicted to something is one way to allow them to seek treatment as it will and is offered "inside". All the person need do is say "yes I want the help". A|nd as everyone should already know, you cannot help a person who doesnt want it.

[WhatThe]

You completely missed my point...just because the workers are being paid already doesnt make his day trips cheap...they are now tied up dealing with him instead of dealing with someone who can or will actually get out and be mixed back into society, hense slowing down the entire system. Metal health patients who are deemed metally ill and not criminally responsibie more often than not spend way more time in the system then they would have if they were not mentally ill.

No, I got your point. Besides, I still fail to see how expensive this is all going to be and how it's going to impact other patients. I admitted I was assuming so I looked up the facility he's housed. http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/smhc/index.html

Isn't this what they do? Routinely let the patients out on passes for and hour or two or maybe a day? Why is one more guy going to be such a drain on resources? And how many dollars is a patient trying to get better worth anyway?

[Trunk-Monkey]

No, I got your point. Besides, I still fail to see how expensive this is all going to be and how it's going to impact other patients. I admitted I was assuming so I looked up the facility he's housed. http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/smhc/index.html

Isn't this what they do? Routinely let the patients out on passes for and hour or two or maybe a day? Why is one more guy going to be such a drain on resources? And how many dollars is a patient trying to get better worth anyway?

Well as the saying goes...you have you opinion and I have mine....
I just wonder how much "better" this guy can get....if at all?

[econovan64]

It seems absurd that so many resources will get used on a person like this when so many other needy and much more deserving people get nothing.

I'm all for a system where dangerous offenders go to remote work camps in the high arctic where they work for their keep or perish. Darwinian laws prevailing.

In many other countries this individual would have been given his 15 minutes in court and then one bullet invested in his future.

[CorkSoaker]

Well as the saying goes...you have you opinion and I have mine....
I just wonder how much "better" this guy can get....if at all?

Well since his schizophrenia was undiagnosed/untreated at and before the time of his psychotic break it is very possible that with proper monitoring he can become "better".

[logicalview]

I just wonder how much "better" this guy can get....if at all?

His first act was quite a doozy. Pretty hard to top that.

The only way to find out for sure is to unleash him on the public.

[Trunk-Monkey]

His first act was quite a doozy. Pretty hard to top that.

The only way to find out for sure is to unleash him on the public.

Exactly...so not only does the mental health system give the public false hope about this guy but if and when he does something else drastic...they give the public reason not to trust them as well. And we wounder why this system is failing.

[WhatThe]

I don't expect much from the other two, but Trunk, I expected more out of a cop, but you unfortunately equate a few dollars is more important than patient rights and care.

[econovan64]

The real concern here is public safety. Suppose if Paul Bernardo got a diagnosis and was able to walk free again on the promise he'd take his meds. This man has already proven how dangerous he can be. People in half way houses walk away all the time.