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Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:21 am

Captain Awesome wrote:Kelowna lives on $100M budget and supports 120,000 people.
Her band lives on $34M budget and supports 1,500 people.

Rwede wrote:
The difference is that Kelowna actually supports its people with its budget, but her band does nothing of the sort. That's the exacerbating side to it all, the huge per capita budgeting variance between the two notwithstanding.


The city supports people with its budget? What support would that be for whom?

According to one poster here, that $34M provides free homes for its people. Are you enjoying your free home in Kelowna along with all the other 120,000 people who also have free homes? Does the city also pay to heat your home, provide water and sewer and electricity for your home - for free?

The city of Kelowna also gets large grant and subsidy amounts from the feds and the province for a variety of projects. They don't provide everything themselves for its 120,000 citizens (not all of whom are taxpayers) and they certainly don't provide much for free.

There are huge differences between what the city of Kelowna has and does and what the Attawapiskat has and does. They are not comparable.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Merry » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:23 am

cutter7 wrote:Heres another look at the numbers.
http://www.oktlaw.com/blog/taking-a-sec ... t-numbers/

There is no question that most of the First Nations reserves are underfunded by the Federal Government. But that still doesn't let the Band Councils off the hook for being properly accountable for the funds they DO get. It is totally unjustifiable for community leaders (in ANY community regardless of race or culture) to be paid the exhorbitant amounts that some are while at the same time their citizens are living in abject poverty.
Also, the complete lack of financial accountability is ALWAYS going to be used as justification by those who do not want to provide adequate funding to these communities. So if such communities are ever going to receive the funding they need they are going to HAVE to be prepared to account for how the money is spent.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Rwede » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:28 am

Merry wrote:There is no question that most of the First Nations reserves are underfunded by the Federal Government.



Who says? The Indians looking for more money? Or a true needs analysis that has determined what the "proper" level of funding is, if any at all? I bet the latter hasn't even been done...it would be racist to do so, after all... :127:
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:37 am

cutter7 wrote:Heres another look at the numbers.
http://www.oktlaw.com/blog/taking-a-sec ... t-numbers/


Since people here aren't too good at following links, I am going to post that whole article in this thread. It makes some valid points.

Taking a Second Look at those Attawapiskat Numbers
Lorraine Land
December 13, 2011 5:32 pm

Should Toronto be put under third party management? That community ran a deficit for years, and the combined total of all government spending (federal, provincial and municipal) is $24,000 a year for each Torontonian.

Attawapiskat, on the other hand, which is funded in federal funds mostly by only one level of government — federal – received $17.6 million in this fiscal year, for all of the programs and infrastructure for its 1,550 residents. That works out to about $11,355 per capita in Attawapiskat.

People often forget, when talking about costs of delivering programs and services to First Nations, that almost all those costs are paid from one pot: Aboriginal Affairs. By contrast, non-Aboriginal Canadians receive services from at least three levels of government.

Here are the total expenditures per capita per level of government for Toronto residents in 2010:

    The 2010 federal budget expenditures were $280 billion or about $9,300 for each Canadian
    The 2010 Ontario budget is $123 billion in expenditures or about $9,500 for each Ontario resident
    The 2010 Toronto budget is $13 billion, or $5,200 for each Toronto resident
    That’s a grand total of $24,000 per Torontonian.

Some additional points to consider:

Indian Affairs (now Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, or AANDC) has capped expenditure increases for First Nations at two percent a year since 1996. Yet:
    - The Aboriginal population has been growing at a rate closer to four percent a year, so per capita support is falling behind.
    - In that same period, the number of staff hired at AANDC has almost doubled, from 3,300 in 1995 to 5,150 in 2010. (Source: Indian Affairs)
    - Those salaries plus consultants fees for people like third-party managers come from the program dollars that should go to First Nations.
    - Consultants (including lawyers and accountants) receive 1,500 contracts per year from AANDC, worth about $125 million. (This does not include fees that First Nations pay directly using sources other than AANDC funding). (Source: Toronto Star)
    - One of these sets of fees, taken away from other AANDC budgeting and provided instead to consultants, is the payment for third-party managers.
    - Another recent and publicly disclosed example of third-party-manager fees is those being paid for Barriere Lake. When the community took political action on some of its issues, Canada imposed third-party management. The accounting firm is paid $600,000 per year, according to Indian Affairs Records. (Source: Toronto Star).
    - Almost every time a First Nation goes into third-party management, it comes out with as much debt as it had going in — or more. This is a good indicator that the problem is not fiscal mismanagement, it’s the insufficiency of resources to deliver the programs needed.(Source: what we hear and see from our own clients)
    - Each First Nation has to file, on average, 160 reports per year to AANDC. The Auditor General says the problem is not under-reporting, its over-reporting (because of the resources and administration needed to service AANDC’s bureaucratic requirements).(Source: Federal Auditor General)
    - Costs of living in northern Aboriginal communities are considerably higher than costs in the rest of Canada. A bag of apples in Pikangikum is $7.65 (versus the Canadian average of $2.95) and a loaf of bread in Sandy Lake costs $4.17 (versus the Canadian average of $2.43). (Source: Canadian Association of Foodbanks). In Attawapiskat, 6 apples and 4 small bottles of juice currently costs $23.50 (Source: CBC).

Lorraine Y. Land is a partner with OLTHUIS, KLEER, TOWNSHEND, L.L.P., in Toronto.


When Chief Spence refused the government's third party manager, that manager was going to cost her band $140,000 per day - from the band's budget.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Merry » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:42 am

grammafreddy wrote:There are huge differences between what the city of Kelowna has and does and what the Attawapiskat has and does. They are not comparable.

I agree with Gramma, but for different reasons.

Cities such as Kelowna receive their funding from different sources, namely local taxes and provincial revenues. Whereas reserves receive their funding from only one source, and that's the Federal Government.

It is my understanding that Band Councils would like to change that, and begin to receive some of their funding from companies, such as mining and logging outfits, that conduct business near their communities. And frankly that's not much different than small rural non-native communities, who often lobby the Province for the right to tax resource companies that locate in their vicinity.

From what I've been reading (there's a good article on the topic in the Globe and Mail) the amount the Government currently gives Band Councils is far less than the amount agreed upon in the Treaties. And even though those treaties may not be in the best interests of either the First Nations or Canadians in general, they ARE legal documents which must either be renegotiated, or abided by. If the Government cannot meet its financial obligations as set out in the Treaties, then surely it makes sense to allow the First Nations access to an alternative source of revenue. And being allowed a percentage of the huge taxes generated by some of the companies located in what are considered to be traditional lands might be a good start.

However, hand in hand with such changes, there would HAVE to be some kind of increased accountablility at the reserve level to ensure the funds are used to benefit the community as a whole, and not just those in positions of power.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Merry » Jan 10th, 2013, 9:49 am

When one reads about all the financial reporting that is required of First Nation band councils (as per the quote in Gramma's post) I have to wonder what kind of a job those providing the "oversight" were doing given that in Attiwapiskat it has since been found that proper documentation was not kept, and the books are a mess.

It sounds as if there's more than just the Band Council who need to be investigated for potentially ripping off the ordinary folks the money was originally intended to help.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Veovis » Jan 10th, 2013, 10:00 am

Strangely GF that article didn't say anything about 140,000 per day, nor why someone would be paid 51 million a year to manage 34 million in revenues. Perhaps you meant 140,000 a year which based on the audit an individual being paid to clean up what the guy who gets paid 300K a year isn't doing should be able to easily plug some of the holes where 200-300K goes for "other".

A lot of saving things financially don't start with more money, they start with proper spending of the money one has, and controls to prevent abuses at all levels.

And Merry, you need to read things closer. There is more revenues than just government funding, and I think things need to be investigated completely in this case to find answers. This is feeling a lot like an Enron to me.

Needless to say, there has been massive financial mishandling in this case and the who and what are responsible need to be determined. Immediately guilty in my opinion though is Kennedy as doing a proper set of books is his job, and he simply did not do it.

Nice to see he has apparently been bankrupt before too. That screams "pay me 300 thousand a year to manage your money" to me, isn't that your #1 choice in financial managers. The guy who can't manage their own?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... iskat.html

Also at 34,000,000 for the last year for 1550 people that would be 21,935.48 per person in funding, not quite as high as Toronto's total but not how that article sold it either. They counted all sources of revenue for Toronto, but want you to ignore almost half the bands revenues, that's not reporting, that's just spin.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 10th, 2013, 10:06 am

Veovis wrote:Strangely GF that article didn't say anything about 140,000 per day,


I may have mistyped. Sorry. Going to go back in my links to find that figure.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Jan 10th, 2013, 10:17 am

Should Toronto be put under third party management? That community ran a deficit for years, and the combined total of all government spending (federal, provincial and municipal) is $24,000 a year for each Torontonian.

Attawapiskat, on the other hand, which is funded in federal funds mostly by only one level of government — federal – received $17.6 million in this fiscal year, for all of the programs and infrastructure for its 1,550 residents. That works out to about $11,355 per capita in Attawapiskat.


That's how much they got out of it, as far as how much they put in:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinio ... 96992.html
With the income tax filing deadline having just passed, many Canadians are likely still getting over the shock of just how much income tax they paid last year. Income taxes however account for only about one-third of the total taxes Canadians pay. Add property taxes, sales taxes, profit taxes, health taxes, social security taxes, alcohol taxes, tobacco taxes, fuel taxes and many others to the mix and the average Canadian will pay $37,700 in taxes (42.6 per cent of income) in 2009.


Anyone have any info on what the average member of Attawapikat pays in taxes per year?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 10th, 2013, 11:45 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... eting.html

Governor General to meet with First Nations leaders Friday
Assembly of First Nations national chief, regional chiefs to discuss expectations at 2 p.m. ET
By Laura Payton, CBC News
Posted: Jan 10, 2013 10:27 AM ET
Last Updated: Jan 10, 2013 2:20 PM ET


The prime minister's office has relented slightly and scheduled a ceremonial meeting between Gov. Gen. David Johnston and First Nations leaders tomorrow.

The ceremonial meeting will take place at 6:30 p.m. ET at Rideau Hall, following the working meeting, said Andrew MacDougall, a spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Canadians will get more details on what the Assembly of First Nations expects out of the meeting with Harper at 2 p.m. ET, when National Chief Shawn Atleo speaks to reporters in Ottawa.

Johnston had said that he wouldn't attend a working meeting on public policy, despite demands by some First Nations leaders, including Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, that he be there in his role as the Queen's representative in Canada.

A First Nations source told CBC News that Atleo and AFN Regional Chiefs Perry Bellegarde and Jody Wilson-Raybould met with Harper's staff last night to press for Johnston's attendance.

Spence has limited her food intake for the past month, consuming only herbal tea and fish broth since Dec. 11. She says she will continue her protest until the meeting happens and said she wouldn't stop unless Johnston was at the meeting.

It's not clear yet whether a ceremonial meeting will meet those demands, though Spence's spokesman called it a positive step. Danny Metatawabin said before Johnston's announcement that she will not attend the meeting on Friday unless Harper, Johnston, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and First Nations leaders are in the same room, having discussions together.

4 hours scheduled for working meeting

The meeting comes after nearly two months of Idle No More protests by First Nations people, as well as Spence's month-long hunger strike.

The working meeting will be held at Langevin Block, the building that houses the prime minister's office, and is closed to media, a spokeswoman for Harper said in an email.

The meeting will start at 1 p.m. ET with remarks by Harper and Atleo, with a plenary session from 1:30 p.m. to 4 p.m. to discuss the treaty relationship, aboriginal rights and economic development.

Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Minister John Duncan and Treasury Board President Tony Clement will be at the plenary sessions.

Harper and Atleo will "engage in a dialogue" about the outcomes of the plenary session from 4 p.m. to 5 p.m.

'Nothing left to lose'

First Nations people in Canada have "nothing left to lose," the grand chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs told reporters Thursday morning, pointing to the problems with lack of housing, unsafe drinking water and poor health in the community.

"We're not here to make requests. We're here to demand attention. And to demand an end to 140 years of colonial rule," Derek Nepinak said.

The Manitoba chiefs distributed a list of 10 treaty principles in advance, affirming their sovereignty and that Canada "has an on-going obligation to fulfill the treaty according to the spirit and intent."

The variety of First Nations stakeholder groups have brought mixed messages on what they're seeking from Friday's meeting. Spence wanted Johnston to be at the meeting with Harper and other leaders, and refused to go there if Johnston wouldn't.

Nepinak says he backs Spence's demand for Johnston to be at the meeting with Harper. Spence is also demanding Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty be at the meeting.

Representatives from Idle No More have distanced themselves from the chiefs. The grassroots movement is also calling on the AFN to walk out of the meeting with Harper.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby grammafreddy » Jan 10th, 2013, 12:14 pm

Image

Talk about emotional blackmail. Wowsers.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby zzontar » Jan 10th, 2013, 12:33 pm

Go back a half dozen years before that GF, there were many people experiencing much worse woes than that, but that's way in the past, so I won't dwell on it.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Rwede » Jan 10th, 2013, 12:53 pm

grammafreddy wrote:Image

Talk about emotional blackmail. Wowsers.



Fine. Everyone alive in 1948 can pay Attawapiskat money. Anyone born after that time pays nothing. Easy solution.

At what point do we move on?
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Merry » Jan 10th, 2013, 1:15 pm

I don't think there's any amount of money in the world that could make up for the kind of societal interference inflicted on the children (and their families) who were forced to attend residential schools. Those schools are good examples of how much harm well meaning busy bodies can inflict on the folks they purport to be trying to help.

Given that even in today's society there are still numerous examples of well meaning busy bodies trying to inflict their views on others, we would all be well served by remembering how poorly such things have worked out in the past.
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Re: Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

Postby Jo » Jan 10th, 2013, 1:37 pm

Letters from 1948 etc seem to me to have nothing to do with the topic at hand, please get back and on topic or explain the relevance.
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