Harper to meet with Chief Spence/First Nations leaders

[Ken7]

grammafreddy

The Indian Act and the treaties are still law and still have jurisdiction over both natives and government.

If you are correct, why do the Natives not abide by the laws they want the Government to abide by?

As for your other comments I question is the Chief's residence on Indian land in Westbank?
You shouldn't bet your pension cheque on it as I will suggest it is. I don't think he will give it up when he is ousted by another up and coming star either!

The only impute the Government had on the Chief's house, would be the cash... not the plans because as we know most reserve homes are not show homes. On any of the many reserves I've seen in Canada that is for sure.

As far as education...why have they no right to educate them their way?? There are rules on Education in Canada. Hockey and potato chips 101 is not an expectable level of education. Even home schooling has certain criteria which must be met as well.

[grammafreddy]

Here's a thought to consider ........

Historically, the natives were placed on reserves in order for the government to have unrestricted access to Canada's natural resources - the land, forests, minerals, etc. without having to fight the Indians.

Think about all the money the Canadian government has made from allowing various companies to harvest trees, develop mines of all descriptions (copper, gold, silver, diamonds, coal, uranium, etc), extract oil from wells, and the railroads that moved these goods across the country through the royalties and taxes from those native lands over all these years.

Think, too, about how that money compounds as those companies sell those products in Canada or through export to other countries and the taxes the government gets from those sales. When you build a house from Canadian lumber, you pay taxes. When you fill your vehicles with oil and fuel, you pay taxes. You pay taxes when you buy a product made from plastic from the petroleum extracted from the land. When goods go outside of Canada, there's more taxes and excise fees. When those products go to places like China for remanufacturing, they get charged import taxes when they come back into this country.

It is not just your own personal tax contribution that is paying the native people on reserves the money they get from the federal government. The government has made billions and maybe trillions of dollars from signing those original treaties.

[dogspoiler]

Yes, and the Indians use all the same services that the Government uses those monies to provide.

[LoneWolf_53]

OK now here's something else to consider GF...................

How much money would they be collecting if instead of treaties, they were simply conquered and/or wiped out as has happened in other instances throughout history?

They came, they took the land from someone who was here prior, white man came and took it from them. They lost, yet in many ways it feels as though compared to many, that they actually won.

The first settlers/invaders, whatever you want to call them, wouldn't have simply left and retreated, the writing was on the wall regardless.

[grammafreddy]

grammafreddy

The Indian Act and the treaties are still law and still have jurisdiction over both natives and government.

If you are correct, why do the Natives not abide by the laws they want the Government to abide by?

As for your other comments I question is the Chief's residence on Indian land in Westbank?
You shouldn't bet your pension cheque on it as I will suggest it is. I don't think he will give it up when he is ousted by another up and coming star either!

The only impute the Government had on the Chief's house, would be the cash... not the plans because as we know most reserve homes are not show homes. On any of the many reserves I've seen in Canada that is for sure.

As far as education...why have they no right to educate them their way?? There are rules on Education in Canada. Hockey and potato chips 101 is not an expectable level of education. Even home schooling has certain criteria which must be met as well.

Why do the natives not abide by the laws they want the government to abide by? Because the government has proven time and time again that their laws were made to be broken. There is distrust and a lack of respect on both sides.

I have no knowledge about the chief's house in Westbank. None. Zip. Zilch. I also have no knowledge about the homes the reservation natives live in. I'm not betting my pension cheque on anything.

Education - I think I said historically they could not educate their children the way they wanted. Yes, today there are education standards. Not every reserve even today has a school for their kids and not many teachers want to go to live on these reserves in many of the remote northern communities to teach these kids and live in these reservation homes. Also, many of the children are FASD and have learning disabilities as well as the illegal drug culture has now infiltrated the reserves (along with native gangs) so learning in school is not as easy as 1-2-3. Very few native kids finish high school. Even fewer go on to universities or trade schools. When the government created dependency, it did a really good job, eh?

[grammafreddy]

OK now here's something else to consider GF...................

How much money would they be collecting if instead of treaties, they were simply conquered and/or wiped out as has happened in other instances throughout history?

Beats me, LW.

I'm just telling you the way things were and why they are the way they are today. Don't shoot the messenger, okay? It's all on the Internet if anyone cares enough to look - the laws, the treaties, the rationale behind it all.

[Roadster]

The government of the day did not want them to be productive members of society - they wanted - and got - total native dependency on government.

We keep talking about the government of the day,,, them people from back then are dead as are the indians who likely signed them same agreements, but as time goes by things should have changed. We are not who they were back then, and we still pay as if we are.
If not for the Europeans do ya think they would be still be smokin rolled tobacco leaves? Using horses for travel instead of our helicopters and ambulances? What would they be using to pull teeth? Would they have antiseptics and pain killers? If they were to sit back and think for a moment they might realise those europeans modernized things, brought in transport, life saving techniques, sciences, education, many of these things they still seem limited to by staying up in them cold climates wondering if they are getting their share of that free money thats being sent in and wondering when they can go shopping next. Who ever said they cant become a part of society? Back then,,,? Wake up! Things changed long ago and they still seem to prefer hiding up in the snow covered flats. Idle no more should mean a whole different thing if they really wanted rights. Those are available, just like we have, sure the government takes a cut but we have all we desire to have and so do they once they take that one step out the gates and make their own buck, sept for taxes its all their's, they know what coming in and they can own and sell and make it even better. Why depend on others when you are a full grown adult who can survive?
When I read indian stories as a kid I had a vision they were a tough people, I still believed many of them were till all this stuff came to light after the Oka crisis and then several others. It was then I though Huh,,,, not what they seemed anymore, not what their history suggests at all, why havent they learned to fend for themselves yet? Why havent they mingled into society as everyone else does, even a single man coming from some other country today must blend in and make his way around or he would want to leave,,, right? Its a right in this country to do so.
I hate to say this but I have worked in places that employed hundreds,,, I have worked with One indian person, one, yup there may have been the odd one in some other section of the work place but one that I worked with. Yet I worked within groups of hunderds. One place had over 600 total and I saw many chinese people, lots of east indians, even a mexican back then,,, several germans, a few hungarians, you name it, people from other lands who came here to make it but one native person from our own country and I gave him lots of credit for being there, doing his thing. He even partied a bit too much but he enjoyed his money and he didnt have to wait till "pay day" to hit the beer store, he went any time of the month cos he got paid twice a month and he had cash on hand.

[dogspoiler]

If the Indians truly wanted to" Idle No More" they would be after the Government to see that they had the training and opportunity to take some of the thousands of job given to temporary foreign workers.

[Roadster]

OK now here's something else to consider GF...................

How much money would they be collecting if instead of treaties, they were simply conquered and/or wiped out as has happened in other instances throughout history?

They came, they took the land from someone who was here prior, white man came and took it from them. They lost, yet in many ways it feels as though compared to many, that they actually won.

The first settlers/invaders, whatever you want to call them, wouldn't have simply left and retreated, the writing was on the wall regardless.

It is lucky they werent just conquered and left run or die. Seems they were given something that might not have been all that fair back then but imagine if they got nothing at all and had to hide from people killing them and still survive totally on their own. They have been given land, then money and special rights along the way that no other Canadian gets,,, and yet it doesnt seem to have helped them grow with us yet today, they just keep ordering up care and coverage,,, for what? Lets say we limit coverage to one or two kids,,, we limit rides to medical care to one trip per person per year,,, maybe they will come out and get some kind of employement so they can enjoy the rights all Canadians have today. I could see this kind of action back in The day, when things were as they were Back then, but now its not like that anymore. Everyone is employable, everyone is allowed to own and sell.

If the Indians truly wanted to" Idle No More" they would be after the Government to see that they had the training and opportunity to take some of the thousands of job given to temporary foreign workers.

10/10
Ya, really! But see them jobs might not pay any better then sitting back and taking in 40 grand as it comes in already. Why do that? Mind you I probably would if it meant getting away from a chief who banks off me and a drippy house up in the snow.
I remember asking a guy on welfare why he prefers to stay on it, he had no skills, he said "I wont work for under 20 bucks an hour, if I cant make that I may as well sit back and suck it in free". So ya its not just the natives but they seem to be on a collective grouping for the same idea. I hate to see one man think this way and know I am paying for his laziness. The whole "pay you for nothing" has to change in Canada. This is a whole different Canada then it was way back in the day a treaty was signed and again its lucky it went that way, how bout getting up and blending in now? And yet,,, they are wondering why booze abuse, drugs and depression causing death is gaining numbers,,,

[waterwings]

This is not about owning land on the indians part because every single person in Canada has the opportunity to purchase, register the land in land titles, pay off the mortgage and own land. This is about indians wanting top be able to own land on their reserve while not having to pay one red cent of money they have earned. The believe they were here first and therefore they own Canada now give them the land. Some where along the line history has not been documented correctly because 15000 years ago white people were in the arctic, in NFL and BC. We all own Canada. Get a JOB Jack.

[grammafreddy]

The government of the day did not want them to be productive members of society - they wanted - and got - total native dependency on government.

We keep talking about the government of the day,,, them people from back then are dead as are the indians who likely signed them same agreements, but as time goes by things should have changed. We are not who they were back then, and we still pay as if we are.

Yes, we do keep paying and I told you why we do. Why do you discount what the government of the day did to them? It created this mess and it continues to do so. Your issues should be with the federal government and not with the natives.

I agree - things cannot keep on this way - and I have said so several times in this long thread. There are problems to be solved, though. For example: What will the government do about all the FASD kids, the drug addicts and the alcoholics they created? How will they move a largely uneducated population into self-sufficiency and non-dependence? How will they get rid of the limiting parts or all of the Indian Act - and is that even what the natives themselves want? How will the government correct and punish the corrupt people within government and within the reserves? How will the government create employment for the natives if they stop paying them the monies now guaranteed to them through the treaties? What will the government do with the reserve lands if they get rid of the reservation system of controlling the natives?

You can't just take a native from some remote northern reservation and plop them in the middle of a big city and cut them loose when all they know is the reservation lifestyle and the remoteness of the north. That would be like taking one of us citified folks and dumping us in the frozen north and leaving us to fend for ourselves with no support or resources or skills to sustain us.

Because of the dependency the government created, I don't know if even a native from the north would have enough knowledge and skills left in order to sustain themselves and their families living off the land any more up there.

[grammafreddy]

This is not about owning land on the indians part because every single person in Canada has the opportunity to purchase, register the land in land titles, pay off the mortgage and own land. This is about indians wanting top be able to own land on their reserve while not having to pay one red cent of money they have earned. The believe they were here first and therefore they own Canada now give them the land. Some where along the line history has not been documented correctly because 15000 years ago white people were in the arctic, in NFL and BC. We all own Canada. Get a JOB Jack.

Well, actually, the Crown and the Canadian government thought the natives owned the land because otherwise, why would the crown and the government negotiate those treaties to force the natives to give up their rights to the land?

Hell, we STILL call it "crown land", don't we? And the title to that land is in the Queen's name. We call the wild deer the "Queen's cattle", too. She is even STILL our queen and head of our country and her representative lives here in a fancy house in Ottawa.

[dogspoiler]

Interesting stuff Gramma. I have just read that the Indians were not the first people here, yet they entered into the treaty arrangement as if they were. The white man, not knowing otherwise at the time negotiated with them. The Indians did not have First Peoples rights, the white man did not have to negotiate with them. The treaties seem invalid to me.

[grammafreddy]

Interesting stuff Gramma. I have just read that the Indians were not the first people here, yet they entered into the treaty arrangement as if they were. The white man, not knowing otherwise at the time negotiated with them. The Indians did not have First Peoples rights, the white man did not have to negotiate with them. The treaties seem invalid to me.

A valid thought for sure and one that begs another question - who were here as the "first people" before the Indians arrived and where did the Indians come from?

One question always leads to another - Where did these other "first people" go?

[dogspoiler]

I think that the Indians, being far smarter than the White Man exterminated them to avoid future problems.