Political correctness vs. sexism at York University

[logicalview]

I have always marveled at the leftist reconciliation of their acceptance of fundamentalist Islam in the world and the blatant sexism towards women that exists in the extremes of that religion - despite the fact that in a lot of countries under Sharia law, women are legally stoned to death. Here in Canada especially, there is no room for this sexism in our current day and age, and yet the leftists in society just turn a blind eye and refuse to acknowledge it.

Here's a case where a brave professor finally put his foot down, and said "enough is enough". Good for him. Note who his main opponent was in this case - The Centre for "human rights", who wanted to force this professor to engage in sexism. You know the system is broken when this is considered "acceptable". Kudos to this professor.


York University student's request not to work with women stirs controversy

Prof. Paul Grayson says, 'This takes us back to the dark ages'

A York University student taking an online course is seeking to be excused from group work because his religious beliefs forbid him from meeting with female classmates.

His professor at the Toronto university, Paul Grayson, rejected his request, which ignited a controversy at the university about human rights.

"I was quite shocked," Grayson told CBC-Radio's Ontario Today. He said he did not know the religion of the student, but fundamentally did not agree with accommodating him.

The sociology professor got in touch with the Centre for Human Rights and the dean's office at York. Both replied that he had to comply with the student's request, with the dean issuing three separate orders to comply.

"I basically refused," said Grayson. "My main concern was that for religious beliefs, we also can justify not interacting with Jews, blacks, gays, you name it. And if this were allowed to go through, then all these other absurd demands could be made."

Grayson said accommodating the student would be against everything he stands for.

"Women for 50 years have been making gains in universities," said the professor. "This takes us back to the dark ages as far as I'm concerned. It's completely unacceptable."

The communication between Grayson and the university took about three months. In that time, Grayson had a conversation with the student directly about his request.

"Very early in the game, I got in touch with the student and said, look, I'm sorry, I simply cannot accommodate you. And his reaction basically was, oh, OK. And he was OK with it. The student is not the problem."

The student participated in the group project, ultimately. But Grayson said the university ordered him to make it clear to the student that he did not have to meet with female classmates.

The university issued a statement saying it is committed to respecting religious beliefs, but said the case was "complicated by the fact that it was an online course where alternative arrangements were put in place to accommodate students who were unavailable to attend classes on campus."

Federal politicians back professor

A handful of federal politicians say they agree with the professor and that the school went too far in siding with the student.

Justice Minister Peter MacKay said that having men and women attend school together was precisely what Canada fought to accomplish when it sent soldiers to Afghanistan.

Liberal MP Judy Sgro, who represents the riding of York West in which the university is located, said the professor made the right decision. Conservative MP Mark Adler, who represents the adjacent riding of York Centre, says there is no place in Canadian society for sexism

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said universities should not be accommodating such a demand.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/y ... -1.2490514

[logicalview]

Another news item on this story....

TORONTO -- Enough is enough.

It's all well and good to be a welcoming, multicultural society that bends over backwards to respect everyone's faith and belief. But there are certain inalienable, bedrock truths that go along with living here that cannot and should not be bent to "accommodate" different value systems.

Gender equality is one of them.

And so it's shocking that a secular, publicly funded school of higher learning such as York University would insist that a professor agree to a male student's request to opt out of a group project because he doesn't want to interact with his female classmates due to religious reasons.

To his credit, sociology professor J. Paul Grayson has defied the decision by dean Martin Singer, and, with the backing of his department, told the student he must participate with women in his focus group assignment.

"We have to make a value choice," he told QMI Agency. "What's more important -- the rights of females who make up 54% of the population, or those of individuals with religious notions incompatible with egalitarianism?"

Since going public about his battle with York, the 40-year veteran professor has been overwhelmed with hundreds of emails of support for not backing down and agreeing to the student's request.

"I think this case is the first of its kind in Canada. Everybody's absolutely astounded," he said.

Among the many students and faculty who applauded his stance was a female Muslim. "She said she has to live with this sexism all the time and she's fed up."

The issue arose in September when a male student in Grayson's online sociology course sent a note asking to be excused from a required learning group: "One of the main reasons that I have chosen Internet courses to complete my BA is due to my firm religious beliefs, and part of that is the intermingling between men and women," he wrote. "It will not be possible for me to meet in public with a group of women (the majority of my group) to complete some of these tasks."

Grayson's first inclination was to deny his request but decided to forward it to the dean as well as the director of the Centre for Human Rights. He was shocked by their response.

The vice-dean said he must accommodate the student in the same way he would make other arrangements for someone who lived too far away to participate in the group project.

"Can I assume that a similar logic would apply if the group with which he did not want to interact was comprised of blacks, Moslems [or] homosexuals?" Grayson asked in a written reply.

In fact, the professor added, such religious accommodation would require York to agree to segregated seating, separate tutorials and even gender-specific instructors.

Surprisingly, the university's centre for human rights took a similar position as the dean's office, saying the Ontario Human Rights Code requires accommodation based on religious observances.

"You lose sight of the values you try to protect and you cling to the procedure," Grayson complained.

He refused to be an accessory to sexism. With the backing of a resolution passed by his sociology department, the professor wrote the student in October and told him he'd have to do his group course work with females. The man -- "a decent, polite guy" -- told him he understood. "I thank you for the way you have handled this request, and I look forward to continuing in this course."

Shamefully, it's the university which still has a problem with it.

On Oct. 18 Grayson received a confidential letter from the Dean of the Faculty of Liberal Arts and Professional Studies telling him he had a "legal obligation" to excuse the student from female interaction because of his religious views.

The senior professor has refused to change his mind. "They can come after me, I don't care," he said. But he worries that a younger faculty member would be intimidated into a different decision.

"Do we want our daughters going to universities where it's OK for male students to say that we don't want to interact with you?" Grayson asked. "I have a granddaughter. I certainly don't want her ever going into that situation."

The days of segregation are over. The religious student gets it. Why can't his university?

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/st ... 01937.html

[kgcayenne]

Why wouldn't a serious student choose an institution that shares his/her values?

[Glacier]

Why wouldn't a serious student choose an institution that shares his/her values?

This is likely why the student was taking this online course, in that he thought there would be no interaction with women. The issue was actually settled to the satisfaction of both the student and the professor when the one assignment came up that went against his religion.

It was after this that the head honcho of the University, Mamdouh Shoukri, stepped in and told the professor that he had to make religious accommodation, nullifying the comprise made between the student and the professor. Can't say I'm too surprised since this is the same University that welcomed as an honoured guest the man that Christopher Hitchens described as “a pimp for fascism” -- George Galloway, while at the same time shutting out out those who uphold democratic values.

[logicalview]

Why wouldn't a serious student choose an institution that shares his/her values?

Would any publicly-funded (or privately funded for that matter) institution in Canada, in 2014, actually put in a policy of segregation based on sex? That's just ludicrous and I can't even imagine why anyone would support this. If you really don't like having to talk to girls and having to treat them as equals in our society, perhaps Saudi Arabia or Pakistan is the place for you.

[logicalview]

Here's a story that ran in the Red Star in 2007 - my comments in italics...

Muslim president for York University

Egyptian-born engineer will be the first Muslim appointed as the permanent head of a Canadian university.

By: Daniel Girard Staff Reporter, Published on Thu Feb 08 2007

York University has long been known as one of Canada's most diverse campuses.

That reputation will soon start at the top.

When Mamdouh Shoukri, an Egyptian-born engineer, becomes the new president of York in the summer, he will be the first Muslim appointed as the permanent head of a Canadian university.

"This is Canada. It's a mosaic," Shoukri, 59, said yesterday in his first media interview since being named the seventh president in the history of Canada's third-largest university.

"I see this as the leadership role at a progressive Canadian university, which will have a diverse population, whether it's among the students or among the faculty and staff.

"This is the nature of the country we live in and this is what we do." - unless you are female of course

Shoukri, currently vice-president of research and international affairs at McMaster University in Hamilton, had his appointment confirmed Tuesday night at a meeting of York's board of governors.

A highly regarded mechanical engineer, researcher and academic administrator, Shoukri will take over from Lorna Marsden, who is retiring June 30 after 10 years in the post.

Under Marsden, the Israel-Palestinian debate became a flashpoint at York, which has one of the largest Jewish populations at a Canadian university. Critics on both sides have accused the administration of being heavy-handed and stifling debate.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission is examining York's long-standing practice of cancelling classes on high Jewish holidays. there's tax dollars well spent

Shoukri, who came to Canada 35 years ago to study at McMaster, said it was too early for him to pass judgment on such debates at York. But, he said, "every group within (the university's) diverse population ... should be assured that they have a president who works for them." unless they are female

Student groups expressed pride at Shoukri's appointment.

"Most importantly, his selection is based on his credentials," said Kamal Haseeb, president of York's Muslim Association. "The fact he's Muslim just solidifies the acceptance of all groups and faiths. unless they are female

"The diversity on campus is not always reflected at an administrative level. This is great to see."

Adam Hummel of Hillel at York, known as the centre for Jewish life on campus, called Shoukri's selection "very Canadian" and a reflection of York's population.

"And, I couldn't be prouder," Hummel said.

Hummel said he hoped Shoukri's appointment would "wipe the slate clean" on the tone of Israel-Palestinian debate on campus. York Federation of Students president Corrie Sakaluk said "it's great to see York making history."

One senior York official said Shoukri's ethnicity had no bearing on his hiring.

"We didn't hire him because he's a Muslim," said the person, who asked not to be identified. "We hired him because of who he is – a fantastic researcher, a fantastic educator, a great administrator.

"We're very proud that we could hire him no matter what his ethnic background."

Shoukri, who believes his ethnic background will fade as a topic after the initial media hype, said his list of long-term objectives includes building on York's diversity, interdisciplinary studies and accessibility as well as being "at the leading edge of linking university research and education to the needs of society.

"I think this is the sign of a progressive university in the 21st century." and 7 years later it has become the most backward university in the 21st century.

http://www.thestar.com/news/2007/02/08/ ... rsity.html

[kgcayenne]

It is not at all unheard of for university students to travel overseas for their education. It would be interesting to know the policies of institutions in other nations.

[whitecandle]

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=54918

[logicalview]

It is not at all unheard of for university students to travel overseas for their education. It would be interesting to know the policies of institutions in other nations.

Saudi Arabia sounds like a hoot:

The Saudi education system has been criticised. One observation was, "The country needs educated young Saudis with marketable skills and a capacity for innovation and entrepreneurship. That's not generally what Saudi Arabia's educational system delivers, steeped as it is in rote learning and religious instruction."[24]

The study of Islam dominates the Saudi educational system. In particular, the memorization by rote of large parts of the Qu'ran, its interpretation and understanding (Tafsir) and the application of Islamic tradition to everyday life is at the core of the curriculum. Religion taught in this manner is also a compulsory subject for all university students.[25] As a consequence, Saudi youth "generally lacks the education and technical skills the private sector needs".[26] Indeed, such control has stifled critical thought, and as a result, the education system does not necessarily foster innovation and creativity; both of which are essential to development.

A further criticism of the religious focus of the Saudi education system is the nature of the Wahhabi-controlled curriculum. The Islamic aspect of the Saudi national curriculum is examined in a 2006 report by Freedom House which concluded that "the Saudi public school religious curriculum continues to propagate an ideology of hate toward the 'unbeliever,' that is, Christians, Jews, Shiites, Sufis, Sunni Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine, Hindus, atheists and others"[27][28] The Saudi religious studies curriculum is taught outside the Kingdom in madrasah throughout the world. Critics have described the education system as 'medieval' and that its primary goal "is to maintain the rule of absolute monarchy by casting it as the ordained protector of the faith, and that Islam is at war with other faiths and cultures".[29] For example, an eighth grade text reads, "The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Saudi_Arabia

And then we have Pakistan....

The picture of illiteracy in Pakistan is grim. Although successive governments have announced various programmes to promote literacy, especially among women, they have been unable to translate their words into action because of various political, social and cultural obstacles.

Official statistics released by the Federal Education Ministry of Pakistan give a desperate picture of education for all, espcially for girls. The overall literacy rate is 46 per cent, while only 26 per cent of girls are literate. Independent sources and educational experts, however, are sceptical. They place the overall literacy rate at 26 per cent and the rate for girls and women at 12 per cent, contending that the higher figures include people who can handle little more than a signature. There are 163,000 primary schools in Pakistan, of which merely 40,000 cater to girls. Of these, 15,000 are in Punjab Province, 13,000 in Sind, 8,000 in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and 4,000 in Baluchistan.

Similarly, out of a total 14,000 lower secondary schools and 10,000 higher secondary schools, 5,000 and 3,000 respectively are for girls, in the same decreasing proportions as above in the four provinces. There are around 250 girls colleges, and two medical colleges for women in the public sector of 125 districts. Some 7 million girls under 10 go to primary schools, 5.4 million between 10 and 14 attend lower secondary school, and 3 million go to higher secondary schools. About 1.5 million and 0.5 million girls respectively go to higher secondary schools/colleges and universities.

The situation is especially alarming in rural areas due to social and cultural obstacles. One of the most deplorable aspects is that in some places, particularly northern tribal areas, the education of girls is strictly prohibited on religious grounds. This is a gross misinterpretation of Islam, the dominant religion in Pakistan (96 per cent of the population), which like all religions urges men and women to acquire education.

The situation is the most critical in NWFP and Baluchistan, where the female literacy rate stands between 3 per cent and 8 per cent. Some government organizations and non-governmental organizations have tried to open formal and informal schools in these areas, but the local landlords, even when they have little or nothing to do with religion or religious parties, oppose such measures, apparently out of fear that people who become literate will cease to follow them with blind faith. Unfortunately, the government has not so far taken any steps to promote literacy or girls= education in these areas. It is even reluctant to help NGOs or other small political or religious parties do the job, because in order to maintain control, it needs the support of these landlords and chieftains who, as members of the two major political parties, are regularly elected to the national assembly.

http://www.unesco.org/education/efa/kno ... an_2.shtml

[Merry]

For me, the answer to this controversial problem lies in this quote from the other thread on the same subject:

Jewish and Muslim scholars from York told Grayson that neither religion instructs a man to avoid interacting with women in public.

“Unless he is asked to be physical with a female student, which I assume he isn’t, there is absolutely no justification for not interacting with females in public space,” an Islamic scholar wrote to the professor.

Therefore, as attending a mixed gender class in no way violates the teachings of Islam, the student's request to be excused from such classes on religious grounds should have been denied because it simply wasn't true.

While that doesn't answer the larger question, which is should religious views be allowed to influence university policy, it certainly does answer the question in this particular instance. So one has to wonder why the University dean was in favour of allowing such a request.

As for the religious aspect, and whether or not the request should have been allowed if it HAD been a religious tenet, all I can say is that wars have been fought throughout the ages trying to enforce one group or another's religious beliefs on an unwilling audience. And in a country such as ours, where there are many opposing religious beliefs and secular world views, it is both impossible and impractical to try to accommodate absolutely everyone. Therefore, unless the school or university is a religious based one, such accommodations should not be allowed.

[logicalview]

[logicalview]

York University standing by choice to excuse student from group work with women over religious beliefs

Tristin Hopper | January 9, 2014 8:07 PM ET

York University appears to be standing by its controversial decision to permit a student to be excused from a group project because the presence of women interfered with his “firm religious beliefs.”

In a statement Thursday by provost Rhonda Lenton, the university affirmed its commitment to “gender equity, inclusivity and diversity,” but did not retract an October order authorizing the much-criticized “religious accommodation.”

The statement comes one day after York University sociology professor J. Paul Grayson went public with documents showing that university brass had backed a request from one of his students to be separated from female classmates for religious reasons.

“Seventy per cent of the students at York University are female,” Mr. Grayson told the National Post. “This kind of situation, from that point of view, is simply intolerable.”

The “unusual” request arose on Sept. 20, when a student in one of Mr. Grayson’s online courses asked to be exempted from a group project because he did not believe in “intermingling between men and women.”

Although the professor’s impulse was to reject the request on the grounds that it would make him an “accessory to sexism,” he forwarded it to both the Dean of his faculty and the university’s Centre for Human Rights, intending to respond with a “principled statement from the university.”

Instead, both sources instructed him to “accommodate” the student’s wishes.

A reply from the Vice Dean argued that the “academic integrity” of the course could be compromised if Mr. Grayson did not respect the “sincerity of the student’s beliefs.”

In Thursday’s statement, Ms. Lenton said that a “deciding factor” in the case was the fact that Mr. Grayson had given another student the opportunity to “complete the course requirement off-campus.”

Speaking to the National Post, Mr. Grayson explained that the other student was given a pass because he was out of the country.

Mr. Grayson ultimately ignored university brass and, together with his departmental colleagues, passed a resolution stating that “accommodations for students will not be made if they contribute to material or symbolic marginalizations of other students, faculty or teaching assistants.”

The student withdrew his request, writing to the professor that “I will respect the final decision, and do my best to accommodate it.”

The student never revealed his religion, although Mr. Grayson guessed it was either Islam or Orthodox Judaism. The professor said he ran the initial request past scholars for both religions, all of whom supported his response.

As Mr. Grayson noted on Wednesday, the “order” has not been rescinded
Nevertheless, in an Oct. 18 letter, Martin Singer, Dean of the Faculty of Liberal Arts and Professional Studies, wrote to the professor demanding that he “respect the faculty’s legal obligation to accommodate the religious practice of X.”

As Mr. Grayson noted on Wednesday, the “order” has not been rescinded.

In Thursday’s statement, the university noted only that “a satisfactory agreement was reached between the professor and the student.”

The administration’s position found no support among federal MPs asked about the controversy Tuesday.

“This is what we’ve tried to combat in places like Afghanistan,” Justice Minister Peter MacKay said in an interview.

“Building schools there, and ensuring now that millions of girls are able to attend school alongside boys, I believe, is a very positive accomplishment of our country.”

Added NDP Leader Tom Mulcair: “I don’t think a university should be accommodating such a demand.”

Parliamentarians with ridings in the vicinity of York also weighed in.

“It’s nothing short of ridiculous,” Liberal MP Judy Sgro said of the student’s request. “We live in a country seeking gender equality…. This is Canada, pure and simple.”

Conservative MP Mark Adler said in an email that the school “needs to realize that this kind of sexism has no place in Canadian society.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/09 ... s-beliefs/

[logicalview]

Therefore, unless the school or university is a religious based one, such accommodations should not be allowed.

Unless it's a public school, in Toronto. Then you can do whatever you want, including segregating boys and girls...and having religious instruction in the school, just as long as only one religion is taught...

Allah in the Cafeteria: Inside the school prayer scandal at Valley Park Middle School

When the principal at Valley Park Middle School allowed 400 Muslim students to pray in the lunchroom, he thought he was being progressive. What he got was a scandal—over the preaching of conservative Islam and the separation of girls from boys—that’s testing the TDSB’s policy of religious accommodation.
By Natasha Fatah



Valley Park Middle School, at Don Mills and Overlea, is much like any other TDSB facility in the inner suburbs—an unremarkable rectangle of grey, concrete blocks, plus 11 portables in the back field. It’s also one of Canada’s largest and most ethnically diverse middle schools, with approximately 1,200 students in grades 6 to 8, whose native languages include Urdu, Pashto, Dari, Bengali and Punjabi. The neighbouring streets consist mostly of strip malls and huge apartment complexes that accommodate many of the Muslim immigrants from South Asia who arrived in Toronto in large numbers in the 1990s.

A kilometre and a half away, amid the fast-food chains and electronics repair shops, is the neighbourhood’s mosque—the Darus Salaam. If you were walking by it in a hurry, you might not even realize it’s a mosque. There’s no minaret, nothing distinctive about the building; it’s just another non­descript box that disappears into the industrial landscape. The mosque is orthodox Sunni and adheres to a strict, conservative interpretation of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. It is also a madrassa—a religious place of learning—for many of the children who attend Valley Park.

The majority of the students at Valley Park—more than 800 kids—are Muslims. Until 2008, several hundred of the students would leave school every Friday to attend midday prayers at the mosque. The prayer itself took only 15 to 20 minutes, but the kids wouldn’t return to school for two or three hours, if they bothered to at all. Some simply headed to a shopping mall or home to play video games. The school’s administration needed a solution.

According to TDSB policy, schools are expected to accommodate students and families who make special requests for their religion, which includes allowing time away from class and providing an appropriate location in the school for prayer. Just how exactly to achieve that accommodation is left open to a great deal of interpretation. In the case of Valley Park, one couple, Ali and Shamiza Baig, took control of the situation.

The Baigs were married in Hyderabad, India, in 1986. They moved to Canada a year later and eventually had three children—two sons and a daughter. Ali is 52 years old and owns an electrical business, and Shamiza, who is 50, runs a home daycare. They are both highly devout Muslims and attend prayer at Darus Salaam. They are also devoted parents and extremely proud of their children. One son has graduated from U of T, the second is studying there now, and their daughter is headed there, too.

Eleven years ago, when Shamiza’s eldest son was still a student at Valley Park, she began to organize a series of prayers at the school during the holy month of Ramadan, when Muslims are required to fast from sunrise to sunset. With the school’s consent, a few hundred students participated in the congregational prayers once a week.

In 2008, the Baigs realized they could expand the congregational prayer program and perhaps solve the Friday exodus problem. They approached Nickolas Stefanoff, the school’s principal, and requested that a prayer session be held every Friday in the cafeteria from November to March—the months in the Islamic calendar when prayer coincides with class time. All the school had to do was provide the space and ask the parents of participating students to sign a consent form. The Baigs, the mosque and the Muslim community would take care of the rest. The school agreed.
A group of parent volunteers, all women, started to come to the school after lunch, clear the cafeteria and roll carpets out on the floor. Then three to four hundred students shuffle in. The prayers are conducted entirely in Arabic, which is the custom in just about every mosque in every corner of the world. Once the prayers are completed, the students return to class, missing only a fraction of the lesson time that they would have if they went to the mosque.

The prayer sessions occurred without scrutiny until last July, when the Toronto Sun ran a series of stories about Valley Park. The newspaper was especially exercised about the fact that an imam from Darus Salaam was leading the prayers in the school’s cafeteria, and that the girls were being made to sit behind the boys.

Political blogs picked up the Sun story and gave it momentum on Twitter, dubbing the service the “mosqueteria.” The controversy grew more intense when the Toronto Star printed a photo of the prayer session and the Star columnist Heather Mallick criticized the school for allowing girls to be treated as inferior.

Most of the journalists emphasized one detail that secular Canadians found particularly objectionable: any girl who was menstruating couldn’t participate in the prayers, and could only observe from the back row. Orthodox Muslims, like members of a number of other faiths, consider menstruating females impure for religious functions.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/fea ... cafeteria/

[Atomoa]

I have always marveled at the leftist reconciliation of their acceptance of fundamentalist Islam in the world and the blatant sexism towards women that exists in the extremes of that religion

...but here in North America we treat women the right way.





We don't even need religion to do this. We do this for entertainment and to profit.

Xenophobic sentiments. Don't point fingers when you know you can't change other people and refuse to look in a mirror.

[logicalview]

...but here in North America we treat women the right way.

.

LOL - more deflection and excuses. Are these women not allowed to be in the same rooms as men? Instead of posting stupid pictures - why not comment on the question at hand? Should the university have intervened in this issue, AFTER the prof and the student had already reached an agreement? What right is more important? A woman's right to be in the same class as men, or a religious "right"? What is more important - sexism or religious freedom? Would anything be different here if it was a Christian or a Buddhist who said that they didn't want to be in a class with women? Hmmm....