What has Harper done about Ukraine?

[Thinktank]

Only a complete idiot would make excuses for Ukraine's deposed leader as it appears he certainly is guilty of embezzling millions from his country.

First of all, Ukraine has been embezzled since as long as they can remember - even to the extent
7.5 million Ukrainians were 'starved' to death in a country with enough farmland to feed the world.
And even if Yanukovych was a thief, he was voted in instead of the 'orange' western government because
the oranges probably stole twice as much. There was going to be an election in less than a year. It's not like
Yanukovych was the leader for life, like Saddam.

This Yatseniuk guy looks like a real crooked bugger. Between the new government, the billionaires and the IMF - the Ukrainians don't stand a chance. I would hate to be them. In fact, I'd be begging for Putin to take over ll Ukraine.

[Ranger66]

“First of all, Ukraine has been embezzled since as long as they can remember”

So this makes it somehow right, you can justify the past crimes because you support the current criminal.

“even to the extent
7.5 million Ukrainians were 'starved' to death in a country with enough farmland to feed the world”

Thanks to the Russian’s.

“ Yanukovych was a thief” “ he was voted in”

No even about it. People did vote for him but he put Harper to shame when it comes to swindling elections.

“There was going to be an election in less than a year”

Was there or were we going to see another act of laughable vote fixing.
It appears your comparison to Saddam was more appropriate then you understood.

[Thinktank]

“even to the extent
7.5 million Ukrainians were 'starved' to death in a country with enough farmland to feed the world”

Thanks to the Russians.

You mean the Russian government - full of weasels

[hobbyguy]

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/db/53/6b/db536b1ef1b8501348e671f898517486.jpg

[logicalview]

You mean the Russian government - full of weasels

You mean the communist government of the USSR under Stalin. A friend of mine's grandmother used to tell us tales of surviving on gophers and half a pumpkin in the Ukraine at that time. As soon as the Germans invaded in 1941 they got out of there, escaping through German lines, as no one wanted to live under Stalin and the dirty horrible commies anymore. She was lucky and made it to Canada, many did not, including her two brothers, who starved to death sacrificing to keep her alive. When she'd have us over for lunch she would always say "eat!! You boys need to be good and fat for the next time the communists come".

[twobits]

You mean the communist government of the USSR under Stalin. A friend of mine's grandmother used to tell us tales of surviving on gophers and half a pumpkin in the Ukraine at that time. As soon as the Germans invaded in 1941 they got out of there, escaping through German lines, as no one wanted to live under Stalin and the dirty horrible commies anymore. She was lucky and made it to Canada, many did not, including her two brothers, who starved to death sacrificing to keep her alive. When she'd have us over for lunch she would always say "eat!! You boys need to be good and fat for the next time the communists come".

LV, I could have wrote that post but instead of grandmother of a friend, it would have been my mother. She got out of there in 1942 at the age of 12 and the nightmare of her youth never left her. I was raised on the stories of the evils of communism. They always involved death, sickness and extreme hunger. Also similar to your story, guests at our home including all my friends (who loved her ethnic cooking) could never leave the table without her shoving seconds and thirds on their plates. Protest was useless. Her justification was that we did not know what it meant to be hungry and she was going to make sure we never did.

[hobbyguy]

It is instructive to consider that many consider that Stalin was not a communist, but a totalitarian fascist.

Where do we put Putin on the scale of things? He doesn't seem to be a communist. He doesn't seem to believe in democracy. He doesn't believe in human rights. Corporatism and oligarchy were ideals of the likes of Benito Mussolini, and seem to be ideals (or at least realities) that Putin embraces. He spends a great deal of effort developing a personality cult.

History tells us that folks that are on that kind of path respond to one thing only - either the use of, or the threat of, a great big stick.

That means that unless you carry a great big stick, you ought not bluster and make threatening or disparaging remarks. The calculations of someone who fits the characterization I have of Putin do not include paying attention to anyone with a small stick, more likely the reaction will be similar to our own responses to a yappy Yorkshire Terrier.

So what "stick" does Canada carry from Putin's perspective? Let's see, we have F-35s - well not yet, and those are said to likely offer little more that target practice for SU-35s. Our tank force is mostly obsolete. Our naval forces? A dozen frigates and 4 somewhat obsolete submarines? Yorkshire terrier class compared to the Russian forces. So we have no stick there. Economic trade then? Something in the $3 billion range. So no "stick" there.

In the absence of "stick", which seems pretty clear, what then is a useful role for Canada? It seems that diplomacy and persuasion, as best we can, are the only options.

So what does Harper do? While the US is trying to "ratchet own the rhetoric", Harper and Baird are trying doing the opposite. Harper and Baird pull our ambassador, closing the diplomatic doors. I fail to see how that is helpful, and it is quite arguable that they are "gumming up the works" and making things worse, especially as if Canada had maintained a real talking relationship with Putin's Russia, there could be a role in aiding a resolution as a bit of a "go between" - but we have relinquished that possibility.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-reduced-to-gestures-on-ukraine-say-former-top-envoys-1.2557882

For many folks this failure and diminishment of Canada's traditional role as diplomatic player, especially with regard to Russia, may evoke a response of "meh!". However, there is a lot more at play, especially for the future of Canada:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Canada+faces+stark+choices+dealing+with+resurgent+Russia/9682310/story.html

"The take away from the Ukraine crisis is that Russia must be taken seriously and as a consequence, he says, the Harper government should take a closer look at its own military plans in the Arctic.

"We have to start re-examining some of the hairball assumptions that we have," said Huebert.

The navy is in the process of constructing up to six lightly-armoured Arctic patrol ships that will perform — by the government's own acknowledgment in internal documents — a policing role.

It also has no submarines capable of operating under the ice, and there is limited surveillance in the region because plans for drones and satellites that can peer through the clouds are either delayed or on hold."

(my bold)

So, arguably Harper and Baird have done little more than reduce Canada's role and exacerbate the situation, mostly as a play toward domestic politics. In the process, they are perhaps annoying the schoolyard bully, and when push comes to shove will simply just get a bloody nose. That bloody nose will likely extend to our national interests in the Arctic.

In the process, we are doing nothing to to help Ukraine. Perhaps less than nothing.

[Thinktank]

Canadians might not be able to buy Russian vodka anymore.

[twobits]

[quote="Thinktank"]Canadians might not be able to buy Russian vodka anymore.


[/quote

I am embarrassed some Canadians have internet access

[canada bound]

Canada's doing the right thing, stay a arms length away. The players are on board, there will be some give and take, but that regions has a split personality. The East really looks at the Kiev as a threat largely because ,, the West has a hard core Right Wing that they are trying to get under control. While the majority of Western Ukrainians want to join Europe to basically evolve from a Communist system collapse, to a Western style society. That region of the World is still in play.

Throughout history even borders of defined Countries (like the USSR) have come into dispute, all around the Globe its a problem that never goes completely away. Ukraine shares a border with Russia, the Russians certainly would have an interest in what is happening since the former USSR incorporated this region for many years. Getting involved in rebuilding other countries in the likeness of your own, or to their (perceived) benefit takes a tremendous amount of capital and personnel.

Make the Wrong decisions and it can take decades to recover from.

If you ever truly do?

[maryjane48]

You mean the communist government of the USSR under Stalin. A friend of mine's grandmother used to tell us tales of surviving on gophers and half a pumpkin in the Ukraine at that time. As soon as the Germans invaded in 1941 they got out of there, escaping through German lines, as no one wanted to live under Stalin and the dirty horrible commies anymore. She was lucky and made it to Canada, many did not, including her two brothers, who starved to death sacrificing to keep her alive. When she'd have us over for lunch she would always say "eat!! You boys need to be good and fat for the next time the communists come"

african americans said same thing about being slaves , whats your point?

[LoneWolf_53]

I am embarrassed some Canadians have internet access

Ditto.

Never seems to be a power outage where you want one.

[Thinktank]

A better question would be:

What has 'the billionaires' done 'to' Ukraine?

Answer: Lots.

And what will Harper do to those billionaires?

Anser: Nothing. He might blab a bit, but do nothing.

[logicalview]

african americans said same thing about being slaves , whats your point?

They said the same thing did they? And you know this how? My point is that communism sucks, and all those who continue to pound the commie table and demand we go back to those failed and terrible ways are just plain evil and horrible. That's my point.

[Omnitheo]

What has Harper done about Ukraine?

A lot of gum flapping about how Canada is "leading the effort" despite not actually doing anything and other nations in the world giving us the raised eyebrow.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e18959539/