WindFail

[Jlabute]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-ed ... -1.3040073

The four P.E.I. communities that put wind turbines up at their rinks have been given their initial investment back by the province.

The province will also cover the cost of taking down the turbines in Alberton, Kensington, Crapaud and Murray River. Kensington CAO Geoff Baker told CBC News the town is happy it's getting its $70,000 investment back and that the turbine is coming down. "We're disappointed that the project didn't work, really from the very beginning," said Baker. "I would say we're very pleased that the Wind Energy Institute and the provincial government came through and really looked after us as far as the investment we made into the project."

Kensington's rink was one of four that hoped to reduce electricity bills through wind energy, a project that received joint funding of almost $1.3 million from the communities, and provincial and federal governments. The Wind Energy Institute of Canada was the project manager. It chose a turbine made by Seaforth and decided which P.E.I. rinks were the best sites.

But Kensington's turbine only produced a third of the power the wind institute projected. "We take responsibility for where our involvement was," said WEICAN CEO Scott Harper.

"We were seeing performance not to where it was expected, but at the same time we were working with Seaforth on, you know, some of those ideas where performance could have been improved."

Harper said the attempt to fix the problem halted when turbine-maker Seaforth filed for bankruptcy. The province will have to spend up to $60,000 more to dismantle the turbines. That will happen once the ground is dry enough for the work to be done.

[Jlabute]

Thanks great article,

Not to mention, ice can build up on a motionless blade, then get thrown off when wind picks up.

http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/accidents.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ovHFTSBQ54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YJuFvjtM0s

http://www.buildings.com/article-detail ... sters.aspx

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/ ... ll-humans/

http://www.windpowermonthly.com/article ... round-3800


A common issue with wind turbines is the gearbox which is recommended to be replaced every 5 years, or else. Transmission fluids need to be checked on a regular basis. Once the gear box breaks, you either get a fire, or huge blade chunks get thrown a mile away. Also, people die from servicing them.

[I Think]

The turbines were probably sited with no thought to measuring the average wind speed. For a successful installation you need a minimum 12mph average, which is very high. Kelowna has an average windspeed of about 3/4 MPH no wind turbine would ever pay for itself in Kelowna, up on the mountain tops is another story.

People who site wind turbines in populated areas are being idiots.
The one shown in the OP's picture is in a *bleep* poor site, too close to the building(s) too close to the trees, to low a tower, and probably an older technology generator.

There are many thousands of wind turbines in daily use so we should scrap them all because some idiots did not do their homework before installing these four.

Just as with any other generating schemes, there are many considerations to be made before choosing any particular one, we don't blame the car for the actions of stupid drivers.

[The Green Barbarian]

The turbines were probably sited with no thought to measuring the average wind speed.

Sure, you can invent excuses, but in reality they were probably sited perfectly, as 1/3 of expected performance is actually quite high. The shysters peddling wind energy have been dramatically over-stating performance of wind turbines for years, and of course, only because governments too embarrassed to admit they've wasted/squandered billions of taxpayer cash is preventing these results from being made public. Wind power sucks. A lot of money. For zero gain.

[I Think]

Hey Green b, perhaps you could let us know what the average wind speed is for each of the sites for those four wind turbines.
You seem to feel that you have all the answers.

[Partmanpartfish]

Meanwhile, next door . . .

http://www.trurodaily.com/News/Local/20 ... rns-five/1

[Glacier]

Wind is a good choice if the site is right, and it can even be economically viable. Texas generates 36 million MWh of electricity (more than double the next largest state), and it's not exactly a socialist tree-hugger paradise.

[The Green Barbarian]

Meanwhile, next door . . .

http://www.trurodaily.com/News/Local/20 ... rns-five/1

Meanwhile, in Ontario...

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/ ... neral.html

[I Think]

green b wrote;

Meanwhile, in Ontario.

So are you deflecting, thought you were asked to give us numbers for wind speed for the 4 installed wind turbines in PEI, so that we could see if the sites were good wind sites.

[rustled]

So are you deflecting, thought you were asked to give us numbers for wind speed for the 4 installed wind turbines in PEI, so that we could see if the sites were good wind sites.

Instead of labeling it as a deflection so you can dismiss it, you might want to take a moment to read it.

It could help you become aware of how Ontario (and Germany, among others) forced up the cost of power, inflicting hardship on the poor and pushing industry out. (Your prior response regarding Germany focused instead on grid management. Are you not interested in understanding the bigger picture?)

The bigger picture is what we should all be looking at. The cost of inefficient policies which waste resources on ineffective technologies, while ignoring destructive environmental impacts, are serious issues we need to acknowledge and address if we wish to avoid replicating the mistakes others have already made. If we are at all serious about coming up with realistic, long-term, effective solutions, we'd focus on the bigger picture.

Perhaps your insistence that others engage in pointless debates over superficialities (where to put turbines to get the most out of them) is a deflection to avoid a deeper examination of the truly serious issues around energy policy?

[I Think]

Rustled, the biggest of the big, is that people have forgotten that the grid was originally designed to operate with constant inputs from generators such as Hydro, coal, oil and atomic. This has changed, and people, engineers included, are not anticipating the fact that now grid managers are having to deal with fluctuating flows of electricity. This is a paradigm shift for the electrical system that we enjoy.
Politicians, vendors, bureaucrats grid managers and end users are all having to adjust their thinking. I do not have time to study individual cases such as the mistakes made by Ontario in their political quest to grab the low cost power available from wind, solar or other power sources.
The thread started with 4 individual citations of wind turbines that turned out to be unfortunate to say the least.
So in order to establish why these 4 problem sitings exist, I need more information. Green B has attempted to use nirvana logic, these 4 were bad (4 car crashes so lets ban cars) I suspect that the decisions to site these 4 turbines was a colosal mistake lets find out what the mistakes were, so Green b tell us for goodness sakes what the average wind speed of each of these site is/was.
Rustled if you want to discuss German or Ontario problems are open a thread to discuss that.
I welcome open thoughtful discussion, but having hyperbole stacked on hyperbole is not interesting to me, my time is worth much more than that.

[rustled]

Rustled, the biggest of the big, is that people have forgotten that the grid was originally designed to operate with constant inputs from generators such as Hydro, coal, oil and atomic. This has changed, and people, engineers included, are not anticipating the fact that now grid managers are having to deal with fluctuating flows of electricity. This is a paradigm shift for the electrical system that we enjoy.
Politicians, vendors, bureaucrats grid managers and end users are all having to adjust their thinking. I do not have time to study individual cases such as the mistakes made by Ontario in their political quest to grab the low cost power available from wind, solar or other power sources.
The thread started with 4 individual citations of wind turbines that turned out to be unfortunate to say the least.
So in order to establish why these 4 problem sitings exist, I need more information. Green B has attempted to use nirvana logic, these 4 were bad (4 car crashes so lets ban cars) I suspect that the decisions to site these 4 turbines was a colosal mistake lets find out what the mistakes were, so Green b tell us for goodness sakes what the average wind speed of each of these site is/was.
Rustled if you want to discuss German or Ontario problems are open a thread to discuss that.
I welcome open thoughtful discussion, but having hyperbole stacked on hyperbole is not interesting to me, my time is worth much more than that.

With all due respect, it's not really up to you to tell other posters what we can post, and where.

If I understand you correctly, you won't address the shortcoming of wind generation (the environmental damage wind farms do, or how public policy around wind generation has needlessly driven up the cost of electricity), because you do not believe these issues are important enough for you to spend your time learning about them?

Well, that's fair. You are, of course, free to put whatever value you like on your time.

So if I understand you correctly, you want to keep the focus on the technical part of energy delivery, e.g. how the grid works or where to site a turbine, because for you personally, people, the environment, the economy, are lesser issues?

However, some of us feel those issues are at least as important as grid efficiency and turbine siting.

And some of us believe these issues ought to be considered every time someone like yourself is promoting energy policy which seems to disregard people and the environment. And again, with all due respect, I think we should feel free to continue putting these issues in front of the public.

The public policy behind the installation of the turbines in the OP is an entirely valid part of an open and thoughtful discussion.
Using labels (hyperbole, deflection, Nirvana logic) to dismiss posts you don't like is not thoughtful, nor is it conducive to open discussion. Surely you wouldn't wish to muzzle posters who don't agree with you.

[Partmanpartfish]

Arguing with North American conservatives about science or progress makes about as much sense as drowning kittens in a bathtub, except drowning kittens in a bathtub at least accomplishes something.

Conservatives fear and hate anything they don't understand. And there is so much they don't understand. Just a few years ago, these bumpkins were rallying to save incandescent bulbs from evil LED technology. Not the most forward-thinking folks.

So they read their silly little articles from their silly little right wing blogs and determine that Germany's shift to renewables is a failure.

It is, of course, a massive success and extremely popular with the German people who are smart enough to see the long term benefits of being leaders, rather than knuckle-draggers. Something North American conservatives simply don't have the smarts or curiosity to see.

Most of them are still hoarding incandescent bulbs.

[Donald G]

To Partmanpartfish and I Think ...

WADR all people are trying to do is encourage you to look at the whole picture of producing electricity using the various short and long term solutions available that have been suggested. Why do you find that so difficult to do ?? You want to repeatedly talk about how good the technology in your car is.

A car is absolutely no good to you if you have no roads to drive it on, no gas to put in the tank and the car is located where there are no uses for it. The "carbon" cost of producing, maintaining your system should probably be a serious consideration given the present global warming.

Repeating nothing except my car is good, my car is good, without being willing to discuss the rest of the costs and problems involved does not in any way further the discussion. IMO the biggest problem by far is where you get your electricity from when there is no or not enough wind or sun to keep producing the electricity required ?? Hydro electricity is the most reliable source of electricity at the moment because it operates day and night in any weather.

Most places who are using alternate sources are importing hydro from outside the province, state or country to fill the weather and darkness shortage because the do not have the ability to produce hydro electricity. Canada has a huge advantage in that respect.

[I Think]

Rustled writes;

If I understand you correctly, you won't address the shortcoming of wind generation (the environmental damage wind farms do, or how public policy around wind generation has needlessly driven up the cost of electricity)

Rustled, over the last few years I have spent hours discussing those very issues right here on Castanet, so please forgive me if I have better things to do than re chew old cabbage.
When I say what I think, or what I know to be true I get insults and diversion, explain to me why I should repeat things ad infinitum.

I am still waiting for anyone who criticizes me to provide the average wind speeds for the sites of the turbines (which look like small builds), so that I can be shown that these machines were properly sited.

PS I have also spent hours discussing turbine design on other web sites, and have worked out blade designs for a few different scenarios, including aircraft. You wanna talk sense I am right here, you wanna keep loading a simple thread with crap just like some of the others here, talk to the wind.