Stupid is the new reality

[maple leaf]

*removed*

[The Green Barbarian]

*removed*

[hobbyguy]

Sounds about right GB. It is called think for yourself.

[The Green Barbarian]

Sounds about right GB. It is called think for yourself.

Fair enough.

[The Green Barbarian]

Nope. I have never advocated for nationalizing pipelines.

Ok.

What I am saying is that the starting point should be what is in the public and national interest. The current situation is that the starting point is what corporations, mostly foreign owned, want. That is backwards.

So what is a better model? You don't want government to own the pipelines, and corporations are stupid. So what's left? Aliens? :)

[Smurf]

What I see is a lot of people who read a lot and think they know something but in reality have no idea. Yes the information is out there but even reading a good deal of it does not make someone truly knowledgeable on the subject. A perfect example of this is an old saying "yesterday I couldn't even say engineer and now I are one". Nothing against engineers as I know a lot of good ones, but so many come out of school thinking they know something/everything and they do have the technical information but no idea how to make it work in the real world. I had an excellent boss who was an accomplished electrical engineer. He always said and even advocated to the society that engineers not design anything until they had a minimum of 3 years working in the field in their chosen profession. My son who is an engineer says he totally understands that and agrees. Then we get someone who reads a bunch of literature, half of which they don't understand and thinks they have an educated opinion. They are not a lot smarter and more informed, they are in many cases just more read. In many cases they are just reading information that reinforces their own opinion. I have worked with people who had trouble reading but understood what was going on better than some of the well read educated ones.

I do agree it is important to listen to peoples opinions but there comes a time when you just have to take action and do what is right.

[Rwede]

I would say the opposite.People in this day and age are more informed and not stupid

No, I think people think they are more informed, but they have just been stuffed full of *bleep*.

For example, when I see Norm Farrell's op ed pieces posted as FACT on here, by people who think they KNOW something, it just confirms the dumbing down of society.

I don't want to derail your thread with Min wage but this is what makes government look stupid and ignorant when they attempt illusion to fool the people .Trudeau won't be able to pull off illusion with how smarter and informed people are today..People are getting smarter and not stupider about what governments try to pull off.
http://pacificgazette.blogspot.ca/2016/ ... -oral.html

See what I'm sayin'?

Pacific gazette blogspot?

[flamingfingers]

^^The Vancouver Sun and The Province would be a 'reliable source for news'?

[maple leaf]

http://pacificgazette.blogspot.ca/2016/ ... -oral.html

See what I'm sayin'?

Pacific gazette blogspot?

So jump in there anytime and refute what is being said.Or does it go along with what I said earlier about some people refuse to read anything that challenges their opinion,view,then passing themselves off as being informed?

[flamingfingers]

^Spot on.

[hobbyguy]

I agree Smurf.

It starts, as always, with asking the right questions. In fact, when you stop questioning, you run the risk of of coming to false conclusions.

My point, GB, is that if you look at what is really in the national interest, and what is in the public interest, and have that discussion, the process of having the discussion will lead you to the "politics of the achievable".

There is now a severe disconnect between what benefits corporations, what is in the national interest, and what is in the public interest.

Perhaps the easiest way to start is to look at what do the public really want out of the economy? I would suggest that the majority want stable and good paying jobs at the base, and fair shake in terms of keeping up with the real cost of living. They also want opportunities to improve their lives, whether it be through entrepreneurial efforts or through education and access to better jobs. Most will realize that you don't get something for nothing, and are willing to pay a fair share of taxes for roads, schools, hospitals etc etc.

In terms of the national interest, that public interest must be served, for if not, the country eventually degrades - which certainly is not in the national interest. However, the national interest has a lot more to it than that. Everything from Defense through to the Environment must be fit in. In an economic sense, that means wealth generation - but only if the public share in that wealth generation. Oh, and as China has learned, economic wealth generation does you little good if you ignore things likes the environment.

We have come through several decades of catering to corporations. There has been a lot of wealth generated, but it has NOT been fairly shared with the public. There are numerous studies that show that for the general public, there have only scraps from that wealth generation, if anything (in real terms).

That being the case, the question becomes how can a pipeline like the Energy East be made to serve the public interest?

Certainly NOT by exporting raw bitumen. Large environmental risks that threaten the livelihoods of many. Very few long term stable jobs. DOA for public benefit.

Maybe by upgrading the product first and then exporting it? Better. More stable and good paying jobs, but still the problems with increased tanker traffic, although slightly lower risk.

Maybe by upgrading it first (jobs for Albertans) and then refining it back east (jobs for Ontario, Quebec etc.) and then exporting it? Better yet. But still the problems with increased tanker traffic and environmental risk.

Last option is upgrading it in Alberta (jobs there and lower, less risky pipeline pressures) , refining it back east (more jobs), and replacing imports, exporting excess? Best. Lowest environmental risk, in fact it reduces the environmental risks by eliminating import tankers and replacing them with a small number of export tankers.

The first option is what the corporations (mostly foreign owned) want. Minimal capital invested for maximum profit generated (said profits and the downstream benefits going to the those foreign countries).

The last option is what possibly would bring the public onside, and is therefore doable. And it meets the national interest in other ways like fixing a big chunk of our balance of trade and current account deficits.

I would suggest then that what the government of Canada should do is to bring together the provinces, tell that this is the best deal, and that on that basis a pipeline would be in the national interest.

If agreed, then put that to the corporations involved. IF they really wanted to, they CAN figure out a way to make that profitable, just not as profitable as shipping raw bitumen to their home countries and using low wage labour, and lax or non existent environmental regulations to enhance their profits.

Now a proposal that meets those terms would be met with broad public approval, and the review process would largely be to confirm that.

The real stupidity is corporations that keep banging their heads against the situation, and wondering why even with a phony approval, things like the Northern Gateway pipeline just are not going to happen.

[The Green Barbarian]

I would suggest then that what the government of Canada should do is to bring together the provinces, tell that this is the best deal, and that on that basis a pipeline would be in the national interest.

If agreed, then put that to the corporations involved. IF they really wanted to, they CAN figure out a way to make that profitable, just not as profitable as shipping raw bitumen to their home countries and using low wage labour, and lax or non existent environmental regulations to enhance their profits.

Now a proposal that meets those terms would be met with broad public approval, and the review process would largely be to confirm that.

.

That's an interesting idea. How would you include the First Nations in this discussion? Nothing will fly, nor should it, unless the FA are involved in the consultation and are treated fairly, in my opinion.

[hobbyguy]

That also has to be brought into the picture, however, it is quite arguable that for FN folks access to upgrader jobs, access to refinery jobs, reduced tanker traffic are also of great benefit.

There are other concerns, such as crossing FN lands, but that can be dealt with either through agreement or by routing.

Don't forget that BC first nations are in a different position, where treaties were never signed. So if you go east, the situation is more organized and more straightforward to deal with. Don't forget that Alberta FNs signed onto the Northern Gateway quite readily.

[Ka-El]

Pacific gazette blogspot?

So jump in there anytime and refute what is being said.

Wait! Let's not just be stupid! What does Ezra have to say about this?

[Ford4x4Truck]

and you didn't care about myths about man-generated CO2 and just created jobs

You repeating that it's a myth over and over again doesn't make it true. In essence, you're doing the exact thing that you're complaining about in your original post - reading a tiny bit about something then professing to be an expert and shooting down the theories and facts that scientists come up with through actual scientific research.

Do you really not see the irony here? You feel your minority opinion is fact and want to shout it from the rooftops even though it goes against practically every reliable scientific news source - even NASA:

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

our society has now gravitated to such a level of entitlement.

I think what you mean is that technology has advanced and more voices are being heard. And in case you didn't know, people now are more educated than ever. Just because you disagree with them or have pre-conceived notions about them doesn't mean they're "wrong" or "stupid."

Everyone deserves a voice despite what some elitists who throw around the word 'stupidity' think.