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Why do you hate Harper?

Why do you hate Harper?

Postby fvkasm2x » Feb 12th, 2017, 4:33 pm

I'm looking for honest and factual information.

If you can provide sources/links to your information, I would appreciate it.


I'm not a Harper lover or hater. I honestly didn't care about any of our PM's in my life time.

I was too young to care about Trudeau Sr.

I was too young at the time, but later did a thesis paper on Mulroney and didn't find him overly bad or good.

I thought everyone else since then was just fine. Chretien, Harper, Campbell... you name them, I thought they were fine.

Except Justin Trudeau. I hate his guts. Just my opinion.

So when I see people claiming Harper was the worst thing to happen to Canada, I don't get it. When they claim he's the worst PM in history, I don't get it. Is this hyperbole? Are these people just stupid?

If you don't like Harper, please tell me why? I am honestly looking for information and logic here. The only semblance of an argument I've ever gotten, is "He did lots of backdoor deals and gave preference to his friends and allies for things." IMO that's fairly weak argument, because literally every world leader in history has probably done that.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby hobbyguy » Feb 13th, 2017, 1:53 pm

1. Harper was the only PM in modern history to take the federal government from a sustainable 'pay down the national debt" position into serious fiscal difficulty. 2008/9 would have challenged any government, but Harper's tax policies placed the government of Canada in a far more precarious position.
2. Harper ignored economic diversity as a priority. Generations of Canadians have struggled to build economic diversity, and Harper washed away much of that effort, permanently damaging the Canadian economy. Canada has always fought not to fall into being "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Harper sold that out to big oil and big corporations.
3. Canada has long had foreign ownership laws and regulations. Long recognized as necessary to maintain economic sovereignty. Harper substantially weakened our economic sovereignty with bad trade deals (Honduras for example) and allowing Communist state owned enterprises to buy up Canadian resource rights. Canada's resources need to be utilized to benefit Canadians, not China, or the US, or Brazil, or... Harper allowed big corporations to buy up Canadian companies, shut them down and move the jobs elsewhere despite those Canadian companies being profitable, and did not enforce agreements not to shut them down where they existed (Stelco).
4. Instead of maintaining impartiality and careful study of projects like the NGP, Harper chose to be a corporate cheerleader and attack dog, and to turn the NEB and other agencies into corporate captive regulators. That results in a permanent impasse and bad things like Lac Megantique.
5. Harper turned politics from "this isn't beanbag" into an MMA battle, where reasonable discourse and debate, and policy discussions had virtually no seat in an arena of smear, propaganda, dirty tricks, and innuendo. Harper even deliberately used our tax dollars to try to influence US elections (absolutely shameful in my view).
6. Harper promised senate reform and instead delivered worse than nothing. Harper delivered the most corrupt senate ever, with no reform at all.

In short, Harper did permanent damage to the government fiscal position, our politics, our economy, tax equity, income equity and our sovereignty.

But no, I do not hate Harper. I simply examined his policies/actions and found them damaging to the country. Therefore I opposed with every avenue available to me. I would be quite happy to have dinner with Stephen and a debate afterwards. It would be an enjoyable experience.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby maryjane48 » Feb 13th, 2017, 2:11 pm

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby bob vernon » Feb 13th, 2017, 2:46 pm

Prior to becoming PM, Steve promised at a Chamber of Commerce dinner in Philadelphia (he wouldn't say this in Canada) that if he had a majority government, he'd make so many changes that "you wouldn't recognize Canada". Well, he got his majority. He didn't start his promised dismantling of Medicare. There was no return to capital punishment. There was no loosening of the controls on guns. He basically cruised and schmoozed his way through his majority. So critical of government "waste", he went to a Commonwealth conference in India.................. and flew an entire fleet of Canadian vehicles over there and back on military transport planes. Indian vehicles weren't good enough. The former mailroom clerk was more interested in becoming a 1%er than making all the changes he boasted about.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby fvkasm2x » Feb 13th, 2017, 3:16 pm

hobbyguy wrote:1. Harper was the only PM in modern history to take the federal government from a sustainable 'pay down the national debt" position into serious fiscal difficulty. 2008/9 would have challenged any government, but Harper's tax policies placed the government of Canada in a far more precarious position.
2. Harper ignored economic diversity as a priority. Generations of Canadians have struggled to build economic diversity, and Harper washed away much of that effort, permanently damaging the Canadian economy. Canada has always fought not to fall into being "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Harper sold that out to big oil and big corporations.
3. Canada has long had foreign ownership laws and regulations. Long recognized as necessary to maintain economic sovereignty. Harper substantially weakened our economic sovereignty with bad trade deals (Honduras for example) and allowing Communist state owned enterprises to buy up Canadian resource rights. Canada's resources need to be utilized to benefit Canadians, not China, or the US, or Brazil, or... Harper allowed big corporations to buy up Canadian companies, shut them down and move the jobs elsewhere despite those Canadian companies being profitable, and did not enforce agreements not to shut them down where they existed (Stelco).
4. Instead of maintaining impartiality and careful study of projects like the NGP, Harper chose to be a corporate cheerleader and attack dog, and to turn the NEB and other agencies into corporate captive regulators. That results in a permanent impasse and bad things like Lac Megantique.
5. Harper turned politics from "this isn't beanbag" into an MMA battle, where reasonable discourse and debate, and policy discussions had virtually no seat in an arena of smear, propaganda, dirty tricks, and innuendo. Harper even deliberately used our tax dollars to try to influence US elections (absolutely shameful in my view).
6. Harper promised senate reform and instead delivered worse than nothing. Harper delivered the most corrupt senate ever, with no reform at all.


1. Are you aware of this was due to faulty management/ideas or was this a result of the times and platforms (economy, investments, etc...)

2. I'm not really sure what that means. Are you saying he was essentially the opposite of Trudeau/Notley in the sense that people in the oil sector are getting screwed by them and Harper forgot about everyone BUT them?

3. Thanks, I will look into that

4. Ditto above

5. Fair enough, but I disagree on that point.

6. So, essentially the same as everyone else... including our current PM?

maryjane48 wrote:he was trump light . still waiting for the niqab to scare me haha


You're an example of why I asked if people who bash are "just stupid."

Please give some logical reasons, facts, etc... as the other 2 guys who responded have

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby Thinktank » Feb 13th, 2017, 4:17 pm

*removed*
Last edited by ferri on Feb 15th, 2017, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ukraine is broke, and undertook a war on that portion of the country that provided 30% of GDP. Now a draft, for an army, for a war, for a government that will - get this - implement IMF/EU *austerity*.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby hobbyguy » Feb 13th, 2017, 4:21 pm

On point one is was a multiple faceted issue.

First off, the ideological bent of anti-tax. Without taxes, there is no government, without government there is no country. Secondly, disrupting a taxation balance that was working. That's basic management pragmatism - if it ain't broke don't fix it. Thirdly tilting tax policy to heavily favor the wealthy and foreign corporations. Fourthly blowing up things like government advertising budgets and the size of the civil service. Fifth, committing the country to unaffordable stuff like the F-35 program, a billion plus $ spent on a spy-palace, $25 million spent on interfering in US elections etc. etc.

On point two:

The direction of previous governments was toward economic diversity. Not picking a "winner" sector and focusing government actions and efforts there. In the background trying to make sure we were not becoming a lower tier country where the economic activity was entirely focused on resource extraction. The oil/bitumen sector is a good example of why you want to foster economic diversity. When oil/bitumen prices plummeted the industry was screwed (zero to do with government action). So were government finances. That was because Harper focused the economy that way, ignoring other options like the "Ring of Fire" in Ontario as possible alternatives. Economists were puzzled why the manufacturing sector did not rebound strongly when the Canadian dollar fell. It was not a puzzle to me, Harper had overseen a significant decline in our manufacturing capacity and done nothing about it, in fact exacerbating it by allowing excessive foreign ownership.

Note that BC, where the provincial government has focused attention on economic diversity is the only province without serious fiscal problems and has strong economic growth. Australia fared better than most expected when their primary resource export prices crashed (Iron Ore in particular) because their government had been actively pursuing economic diversity.

All of that goes back to basic management realities: 1. Diversify your market base, and if one sector is down, another will be up. 2. Value added products are he most profitable. Large "commodity" type sales have very low margins, value added type sales have larger margins. 3. To maximize value added sales, you need to focus attention on many areas of activity.

The directions of the Harper government were entirely opposite to that. Being content to ship raw bitumen as a commodity and ignore the possibilities in upgrading/refining/plastics etc. Would the working folk of Alberta be as stretched if there were more jobs in upgrading/refining/plastics? I think not.
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby The Green Barbarian » Feb 14th, 2017, 2:42 pm

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Pierre Trudeau was an epic disaster for Canada. Like father like son.

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby techrtr » Feb 15th, 2017, 10:32 am

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby fvkasm2x » Feb 15th, 2017, 3:24 pm

I am surprised there is so little response to this.

Considering all the hate for him, you'd think someone would be able to enlighten someone genuinely willing to listen.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby slimbotimbo » Feb 15th, 2017, 3:56 pm

He is the only Canadian prime minister to be found in contempt of Parliament. He was hopefully the closest Canada will ever have to a dictator.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby Omnitheo » Feb 15th, 2017, 4:01 pm

I've been too busy to do a good write up.

I don't hate the man. I hated a lot of his policies and the way he did things.

For instance, Christmas time a few years ago, he had a news interview and was asked if he was expecting an election. He said that they had no intention of holding an election, and this if an election were to happen it would be due to his opponents playing "political games". This seemed a bit fishy considering that all month the Conservative party had been running several attack ads against Ignatieff. Just as it would be suspicious a few months from now if the liberals wasted money on attack ads against Bernier or something when there shouldn't be an election for another 2 years.

So of course, Harper releases his budget so full of holes it made almost everyone in the house scratch their heads (including conservatives who were barred though from anything but towing the party line). The official opposition acted exactly as it is supposed to, and the failure to pass he budget was treated as a vote of no confidence forcing an election.

This allowed Harper to force an election, and make it appear as though the other parties were just attempting to waste taxpayer dollars, resulting in Harper gaining a majority.

I feel it was a brilliant strategy, but it was built on lying and manipulations. Great politician. Bad person.

Of course there's all the stuff regarding muzzling scientists. Shutting down research projects or anything really that could shed a negative light on the oil industry.

Omnibus bills, without public consultation drafted behind closed doors. Ignoring the courts and judges who stated repeatedly that mandatory minimum sentencing was a terrible idea. And all this "tough on crime" rhetoric at a time when crime in Canada was at a 40 year low. It worked though and even had my grandparents scared that crime was on the rise and that they shouldn't go outside.

We give the Trump administration a lot of flack for "alternative facts" but Harper pioneered it.

now while people writing letters to the editor complain about Trudeau spending money on Canada's 150 year anniversary, Harper was obsessed over celebrating the anniversary of 1812. He would do weird things like installing portraits of the queen everywhere, and changing the "Government of Canada" to the "Harper Government". Stuff that kinda seemed analogous to the Kim dynasty.

And there was also his cabinet, with such upstanding people as Vic Towes who basic told Canadians that if they weren't ok with police and government having full access to their private conversations that they were basically child pornographers.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby The Green Barbarian » Feb 15th, 2017, 4:06 pm

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Pierre Trudeau was an epic disaster for Canada. Like father like son.
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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby JollyGreenBully » Feb 15th, 2017, 4:56 pm

Omnitheo wrote:Of course there's all the stuff regarding muzzling scientists. Shutting down research projects or anything really that could shed a negative light on the oil industry.


This was my big issue due to the occupations of people I know and family members. I know it was near the end of his reign but that nonsense with scrapping projects and other things in order to "save" money and make it look like he left a surplus was also really annoying. Hate is a really strong word, though. Dislike maybe, but there's something or even a myriad of reasons to dislike nearly every politician.

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Re: Why do you hate Harper?

Postby fvkasm2x » Feb 15th, 2017, 6:27 pm

slimbotimbo wrote:He is the only Canadian prime minister to be found in contempt of Parliament. He was hopefully the closest Canada will ever have to a dictator.


Ok, but I am asking for some replies with "meat."

This is one random fact (one that doesn't really mean anything, unless you explain it and why it's important) and then a generic insult.

This is the exact kind of comment that makes me think the people who hate him are ridiculous (please note, I'm not saying you are... just that these kind of comments don't help someone "on the fence" sway to your side).





Thank you Omnitheo for getting a bit deeper with your answer.
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