How Tesla’s Elon Musk became the master of fake business

[Queen K]

https://okanaganedge.net/2017/08/14/dev ... oks-solar/

There is a free solar information session on September 23rd.

According to Aldridge, Kelowna and the Central Okanagan are some of the best places to implement solar, due to an abundance of sun, and some of the highest electricity rates in the province.

For people interested in learning more about solar power, Terratek Energy will be hosting a free informational event on home solar systems, Sept. 23 at the Okanagan Centre for Innovation.

Who wants to go?

[Queen K]

https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/going-solar ... 6960328337

To me solar technology and using it is like this: The Wise man knows to plant the sapling, knowing he's unlikely to see the shade.

Placing the technology in may not result in personal ROI, but it will result in overall environmental ROI. Now I know for hardcore finance guys, that may be stretching it. Or just is. Or is unicorn poop. Either way, if Site C is to provide cheap energy, eventually, solar is there to assist in net credits for individuals and will pay off in 5 to 8 years. My friend published his electrical bill AFTER installing the solar panels and he and his family are on their way.

[rustled]

It's interesting you still feel the environmental ROI is worth it.

[Queen K]

It's more interesting how you don't.

[rustled]

Really? Well, perhaps. Since you've expressed an interest:

I've looked beyond how the solar panel would work in my own yard, to how manufacture and disposal of solar panels affects other folks' backyards.

Say, those in China.

Lots for me to consider when I look at the big picture, and it's pretty clear to me that it's not cleaner technology than hydroelectricity.

So while I don't begrudge a solar panel to those who have fewer options than I have, particularly in the poorest places in the world where they must still burn anything from dung to kerosene to light their homes, and even where the best choice is a diesel generator, I certainly can't see the purchase and installation of one here in my urban Penticton dwelling as providing a superior ROI for the environment.

I understand not everyone sees it this way.

It's certainly more interesting, to me, that intelligent, well-educated and well-meaning people are not only willing to overlook or downplay any and all harm done by "green" technologies themselves, they work to disparage those who do try to consider the whole picture. I think this is, in part, what makes people like Musk so successful.

[Queen K]

Again, all our technologies are proving to be "dirty" show me a clean one.

Solar is proving to be a hot commodity right now, I wish I had the roof line to get it done here but alas I do not. Not to mention my neighbours house is taller than mine.

And getting solar is voluntary, I don't see anyone forcing it on us. Solar energy is coming down in price and it's proving to be the wave of "right now" rather than the future.

It's also proving to be an aide to self-reliance for many who are harnessing it. I see no problem with it.

[maryjane48]

Again, all our technologies are proving to be "dirty" show me a clean one.

Solar is proving to be a hot commodity right now, I wish I had the roof line to get it done here but alas I do not. Not to mention my neighbours house is taller than mine.

And getting solar is voluntary, I don't see anyone forcing it on us. Solar energy is coming down in price and it's proving to be the wave of "right now" rather than the future.

It's also proving to be an aide to self-reliance for many who are harnessing it. I see no problem with it.

a company in germany makes a self contained unit that tracks the sun .. which how you get best bang for your buck . i think its called a sunflower

[rustled]

I get that you see no problem with any of it, Queen K.

Although it very much in vogue right now, I'm hoping others reading this thread will give a little more weight to the cost side of solar, at least for the environment, even if they're not concerned with the subsidization of solar through tax dollars that could be put to better use.

[Queen K]

Better use is a matter of personal opinion and politics.

If you read the OD solution thread, more Safe Injection sites would be "better use" for some. And not for others.

I happen to differ on your opinion on "better use" as I have no problem with multiple systems capturing sunlight and using the resulting electrical and selling off excess to BC Hydro. My friend published his electrical bill on line, the before and after. It's impressive what he's working towards, a pay off in about eight years after all purchase and installation expenses are said and done. For them, it's a gamble, if they're still in that house in that time and longer. But how many stay in their homes for 30 years or more? I've met many people who have done just that.

[Queen K]

Is anyone going over to the city of Edmonton to have a word with them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6dbQHe ... e=youtu.be

[rustled]

Better use is a matter of personal opinion and politics.

If you read the OD solution thread, more Safe Injection sites would be "better use" for some. And not for others.

I happen to differ on your opinion on "better use" as I have no problem with multiple systems capturing sunlight and using the resulting electrical and selling off excess to BC Hydro. My friend published his electrical bill on line, the before and after. It's impressive what he's working towards, a pay off in about eight years after all purchase and installation expenses are said and done. For them, it's a gamble, if they're still in that house in that time and longer. But how many stay in their homes for 30 years or more? I've met many people who have done just that.

Yes, indeed it is a matter of personal opinion and politics.

Speaking of opinion, it is important, I think, to weigh the pros and cons of our energy sources cradle to grave. It's nice for your friend who's looking to pay of his purchase and installation expenses before the end of the useful life of his solar panels. (Were you able to discover how much of his purchase we subsidized? I'm thinking of hidden as well as direct subsidies.) Once he's paid for his investment, I'd imagine he hopes to reap the benefit of electricity that won't cost him any additional investment, which will be very nice for him.

You say he is also selling back to the grid? In many jurisdictions, this has caused an increase in grid costs, which is borne by those who must still purchase their energy from the grid. Of course, some choose not to take advantage of this opportunity to subsidize their own lifestyle at the expense of others. But I think you'd have to agree, it is really only a choice for those who can actually afford solar. For those who can't: not so much.

But I am still curious about your environmental ROI statement. At what point do you factor in the higher environmental cost of solar versus the hydroelectric power your friend could have purchased? You felt it was worth the environmental cost. How heavily does this factor into the equation, given that the cradle to grave production impact of solar is considerably harder on the environment, per kWh, than hydroelectric?

No worries if you can't answer any of these questions. It's really NOMDB what your friend did and why, other than the fact that I've probably subsidized his personal choice whether I wanted to or not. (But hey, I've subsidized various things I don't agree with, along with many that I'd like to see receive far more funding like health care, mental health and addiction care, poverty reduction strategies (maybe we'll see some specifically geared to those living with energy poverty), and so forth. These things are higher on my list of priorities than solar panels, but then I suppose there's no reason my priorities should be considered more important than those of the hip green crowd who want their solar, no matter what the cost.)

These are all questions I'd hope other people will ask themselves as they consider purchasing solar panels to reduce their own personal energy costs.

Mods, you might want to tell me to get . Here's how the above relates to Elon Musk and Tesla: Years ago, a friend showed me the EV she'd recently purchased. The antithesis of a reckless consumer, this was at that time the only brand new vehicle she'd ever owned. She bought it because she cared strongly about the environment and she believed it was a worthwhile investment, strictly for that reason alone. When I asked her what the environmental consequences of those batteries would be, she realized she didn't know. I should have kept my mouth shut, because of course it turned out she'd been dazzled by the green. Cradle to grave, the vehicle she already owned would have cost the environment considerably less, since she was careful to maintain it.

What a shame when people want to do the right thing, put their money up, and then realize they've really just paid a lot of money to a different business to do much the same thing. Or worse.

[Queen K]

My friend estimates 6 to 8 years before being fully paid off from purchase to installation. But wait!


http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

http://news.energysage.com/how-long-do- ... nels-last/

The above links are saying the natural life of solar panels can be expected to be approximately 25 - 30 years, depending upon make and model, but in fact because the technology is improving over time, we really don't know. Output declines over time of course.

As for the rest of your post, you are so impassioned against solar, an industry that is expanding and improving with each waking moment of our lives, where solar tech can not get enough installers, seminars are filled up, more and more industries going ahead with the solar explosion, that I can only advise you to get out there to tell them why they're all wrong.

Maybe they'll put an end to all their activities if you send them your objections in an email?

Here's a Vernon company, https://www.roostsolar.com/?gclid=CjwKE ... oCgwfw_wcB

As for your concerns re BC Hydro, you should contact them and tell them to stop approving solar array connections immediately, because for some reason, they are approving these things all the time! Here is information from Rooster's FAQ list:


Step 1: We apply as a simple net metering application to BC Hydro through their online PDF here (Adobe required). Details like your account number, and smart meter number, as well as your signature are needed from you.
Step 2: BC Hydro will assess the application and approve it.
Step 3: We proceed with the installation of the PV system.


Until BC Hydro sees your reasoning, all is lost for anti-solar arguments, including all references to subsidies, because clearly the Liberals were in charge of BC Hydro when all subsidies were set up, if any. Would anyone set up subsidies for solar if they weren't with the NDP and Greens?

ETA:

https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/resi ... nergy.html


Someone needs to shut this subsidy program down.

https://www.homeperformance.com/bc-reba ... on-rebates

[Queen K]

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/companie ... li=AAggFp5

[rustled]

My friend estimates 6 to 8 years before being fully paid off from purchase to installation. But wait!


http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/

http://news.energysage.com/how-long-do- ... nels-last/

The above links are saying the natural life of solar panels can be expected to be approximately 25 - 30 years, depending upon make and model, but in fact because the technology is improving over time, we really don't know. Output declines over time of course.

As for the rest of your post, you are so impassioned against solar, an industry that is expanding and improving with each waking moment of our lives, where solar tech can not get enough installers, seminars are filled up, more and more industries going ahead with the solar explosion, that I can only advise you to get out there to tell them why they're all wrong.

Maybe they'll put an end to all their activities if you send them your objections in an email?

Here's a Vernon company, https://www.roostsolar.com/?gclid=CjwKE ... oCgwfw_wcB

As for your concerns re BC Hydro, you should contact them and tell them to stop approving solar array connections immediately, because for some reason, they are approving these things all the time! Here is information from Rooster's FAQ list:


Step 1: We apply as a simple net metering application to BC Hydro through their online PDF here (Adobe required). Details like your account number, and smart meter number, as well as your signature are needed from you.
Step 2: BC Hydro will assess the application and approve it.
Step 3: We proceed with the installation of the PV system.


Until BC Hydro sees your reasoning, all is lost for anti-solar arguments, including all references to subsidies, because clearly the Liberals were in charge of BC Hydro when all subsidies were set up, if any. Would anyone set up subsidies for solar if they weren't with the NDP and Greens?

ETA:

https://www.bchydro.com/powersmart/resi ... nergy.html


Someone needs to shut this subsidy program down.

https://www.homeperformance.com/bc-reba ... on-rebates

Interesting that you continue to promote solar because it's popular. You seem quite disinterested in how it impacts the environment or those without the resources to get on the bandwagon. That's fine, each of us has different priorities. "Everyone's doing it" isn't a rationale I find appealing, particularly when it's at the expense of those with less, and the environment.

This is why I continue to ask people to look at the full environmental impact of solar, and seriously consider what's behind people in first-world countries living in energy poverty.

In your own way, you're encouraging people to buy in, regardless of those impacts. In my own way, I'm encouraging people who have better options to consider those impacts. People who choose to pay for solar panels for their own use need to recognize those costs, particularly if they're unaware of how selling back to the grid affects the cost of energy for others. If they knowingly go ahead with their purchases, that's their fully-informed choice.

Although you're convinced I must be as impassioned against solar as you are impassioned for it, I wish to assure the others reading this thread that this is not the case. Solar is a wonderful solution for people who live in unserved areas, and in areas unserved by cleaner options.

At some point, I hope they'll be able to find a way to reduce or eliminate the significant manufacture and disposal costs to the environment, and that we will be able to source panels for which all subsidies are transparent with which to reduce our own reliance on grid power.

I wonder if Musk is seriously interested in helping with either of those issues?

[Queen K]

https://www.homeperformance.com/bc-reba ... on-rebates

Interesting that you continue to promote solar because it's popular. You seem quite disinterested in how it impacts the environment or those without the resources to get on the bandwagon. That's fine, each of us has different priorities. "Everyone's doing it" isn't a rationale I find appealing, particularly when it's at the expense of those with less, and the environment.

This is why I continue to ask people to look at the full environmental impact of solar, and seriously consider what's behind people in first-world countries living in energy poverty.

In your own way, you're encouraging people to buy in, regardless of those impacts. In my own way, I'm encouraging people who have better options to consider those impacts. People who choose to pay for solar panels for their own use need to recognize those costs, particularly if they're unaware of how selling back to the grid affects the cost of energy for others. If they knowingly go ahead with their purchases, that's their fully-informed choice.

Although you're convinced I must be as impassioned against solar as you are impassioned for it, I wish to assure the others reading this thread that this is not the case. Solar is a wonderful solution for people who live in unserved areas, and in areas unserved by cleaner options.

At some point, I hope they'll be able to find a way to reduce or eliminate the significant manufacture and disposal costs to the environment, and that we will be able to source panels for which all subsidies are transparent with which to reduce our own reliance on grid power.

I wonder if Musk is seriously interested in helping with either of those issues?[/quote]

How do you mean that people who set up personal solar arrays are doing as the expense of those who have less? Suddenly it's an affordability issue?

And are you as impassioned by the costs of manufacturers creating products meant to die after 2 - 5 years? Or age out, or are part of plan to make products obsolete after a short period of time? How can you even have an android cell phone or tv then? Jabulute loved his tv, but the industry killed his model and all parts. Was forced to trash it and buy new. Are you so against solar panels that last 25-30 years but for the rest of the tech industry? Let's talk about disposal costs for technology overall if you're throwing in solar panels.


And if the industry is so bad for hydro rates, are you suggesting one step further that BC Hydro is encouraging solar arrays to keep costs high? I thought we were the third cheapest in Canada according to HobbyGuy and a few others? Site C thread posts seem to indicate so.

Perhaps Elon Musks solar shingles are the answer to solar panels. A product being installed now by many businesses.