White Nationalism on the Rise in Canada

[Ka-El]

...Off the top of my head I would say any speech inspiring hate and intolerance toward an identified group based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc.

Ahhh....So not necessarily speech directly promoting violence against an individual/group but simply "inspiring hate and intolerance" in other words just possibly shaping someone else's views

By your argument, you would have had no issue with the hate speech that was being directed toward the Jews in Nazi Germany. After all, as you see to be implying, what harm could have come from the shaping of other people’s views. People should be free to speak whatever and think for themselves. Right? Who are we to stifle ‘free speech”?

Remind me. How did that work out anyway?

[Veovis]

2 part answer.

First - he really does whine that much and it would be nice to have a law to make him stop.

Second - you used the phrase "inspiring hate". I showed you just how ridiculous basing a law on someones feelings was, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Actual hate, should be dealt with. If the signs, etc meet legal requirements they can have them, not liking their message (as long as it is legal) does not grant the right to assault, attack, abuse etc etc. You have the right to counter their argument, shun then, boo them etc but looking at Quebec a few days ago, who looked like the degenerates? When racists come out looking like to better behaved people you have failed terribly.

Making a law based on feeling and individual perception well just watch interviews or read these very forums. People quite often get right upset over things they "felt" even though it wasn't what was said. How do we censor that or police it?

[Ka-El]

Second - you used the phrase "inspiring hate".

Yes. Inspiring hate toward a group (not an individual); such as blacks, Muslims, First Nations, homosexuals, etc. I'm sorry if I had not yet made this clear enough. This is what happened in Nazi Germany. The Nazis inspired hate toward the Jews, used them for scapegoats for all their problems, and then ostracized them and then ... well, you know the rest.

[Veovis]

As I said, I understand your point, and I don't disagree. It's the application that is the issue. What you feel is inspiring is different from others, When a word becomes bad enough we can add it to the list of "this constitutes a hate crime" laws we have, but never can we make it open to "it's illegally because Becky feels like it should be today"

ALL Children could be called a group as well. I did note you left Caucasian off your list? Why? Wouldn't Race be a better term than whatever colour is trendy this year? You leaving that out could easily be considered inspiring hate to Caucasians as you don't feel they qualify as a group of people that should be treated like people.....I don't think that about you, but simply omitting it could then be argued as an inspirational hate movement.

The fact that it is sooooo brutally easy to act or get offended by anything means that type of language has to be kept out of the laws unless it it quite specific.

These are issues I have with these movements as they seem based in good intentions but the application of those intentions often comes out in the form of bad behaviour and intolerant mentalities, it's just where the terrible views are aimed as to what makes them acceptable or not, all under the guise of "we're good you're bad"

[Veovis]

Here's a better Thought KA-El - whats the better route forward?

We can see that violent rallies aren't working, a foolish law would be a gong show, so what do we do?

I know what I do, but I don't care about rallies and crap where people go more to cause a scene that protest anything, I care about my family and friends of all different types and professions and lifestyles, and teach my kids the same.

Saying you are a better person than the other guy doesn't mean anything, you actually have to be a better person.

[Ka-El]

ALL Children could be called a group as well.

Yes they could. I already commented on that

I did note you left Caucasian off your list? Why? Wouldn't Race be a better term than whatever colour is trendy this year? You leaving that out could easily be considered inspiring hate to Caucasians as you don't feel they qualify as a group of people that should be treated like people.....

Yes, I could have made a very long list of examples. Do you think that would have made my point more clear?

These are issues I have with these movements as they seem based in good intentions but the application of those intentions often comes out in the form of bad behaviour and intolerant mentalities, it's just where the terrible views are aimed as to what makes them acceptable or not, all under the guise of "we're good you're bad"

So we should just allow it? Not speak up? Again, how well did that work out for the Jews in Nazi Germany?

Here's a better Thought KA-El - whats the better route forward?

We can see that violent rallies aren't working, a foolish law would be a gong show, so what do we do?

Assault is a crime. Arrest anyone who commits it.
Hate speech is a well-defined crime (see post by Omnitheo). Arrest anyone who commits it.

... and where it is not well-defined (enough to arrest) speak out against ignorance. Don't just ignore it and let it go unchallenged so more simple minds might think there is some validity to it and it spreads.

[Merry]

I thought Poindexter made a good point right at the beginning of this thread, when he said the following:

have been saying for over a year now that liberal democracies across the world, including Canadian, are going to have to adjust their message around this issue. I'm not anti-immigrant but I'm not willing to dig in my heels and hand over our government to the right over the issue. IMO it was a big part of the reason Trump appealed to the white working class. Liberals have to adjust this because currently the message being sent to this demographic is that progessives are willing to let anyone and everyone enter our country which is a huge red flag to many centrists in Europe, and both sides of our border.

It's one thing to be in favour of legal immigration and opening our doors to genuine refugees. But it's entirely another when the General Public see their Government appearing to be welcoming illegal immigrants with open arms, and using our taxes to pay for their room and board while they await their hearings (which are also paid for with our tax money).

Legal immigrants don't require as much Government assistance as illegal ones do. They are viewed as being hard working and productive, and a welcome addition to our society. So most people have no problem with legal immigrants.

Refugees are seen as being people who are in need of our help to start a new life after fleeing for their lives from a war torn country, or some form of persecution. And in such situations, Canadians don't mind being generous.

But illegals, many of whom are NOT genuine refugees, and some of whom are clearly not even poor, are seen as "ripping off the system" and/or queue jumping, and therefore not deserving of our money. Particularly by folks who barely have enough money to get by themselves.

If the Government, and society as a whole, doesn't want to see dislike of illegals morphing into dislike of foreign migrants in general, then the Government needs to do whatever it takes to stop the current influx of illegal migrants crossing our borders on a daily basis.

[Veovis]

... and where it is not well-defined (enough to arrest) speak out against ignorance. Don't just ignore it and let it go unchallenged so more simple minds might think there is some validity to it and it spreads.

But isn't that what the people throwing rocks and bear spray, and attacking cops doing? They are stopping bigotry....just ask them.

Thankfully in Quebec some were arrested, it sends a message that protesting is fine, but that behaviour isn't, but they will argue they are "just standing up to racism" See the problem?


As for your list not being long enough I assume you got my point as well? Should someone choose they will find a reason to get upset, many now spread hate under the guise of stopping hate over imagined slights. What the protesting groups need to do is protest, AND self police themselves. Don't block roads and create conflicts, show in numbers that the rational calm people that are accepting of all people and vastly outnumber the few real racists, that would get attention. Until then it's just two separate hate groups looking for a fight.

[sobrohusfat]

...Off the top of my head I would say any speech inspiring hate and intolerance toward an identified group based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc.

Ahhh....So not necessarily speech directly promoting violence against an individual/group but simply "inspiring hate and intolerance" in other words just possibly shaping someone else's views

By your argument, you would have had no issue with the hate speech that was being directed toward the Jews in Nazi Germany. After all, as you see to be implying, what harm could have come from the shaping of other people’s views. People should be free to speak whatever and think for themselves. Right? Who are we to stifle ‘free speech”?

Remind me. How did that work out anyway?

Not a single Jew spontaneously combusted by hearing any of Hitler's animated Jew-hating speeches. ...a few more factors were involved there.

Weird thing, Hitler was a huge fan of Henry Ford's many Jew-hating, conspiracy dripping, rants and publications (The International Jew) just like many Americans were huge fans of this BS - and yet there were no killing squads established in the U.S. to roam the back country, sending entire Wisconsin villages into mass graves.

No amount of banning wack-job Imams from calling for the extermination of Jews today will prevent tomorrows attack in Jerusalem. ...Mossad and the IDF will.

You will not prevent the spread of anything.

Please quit trying to protect me with speech laws - that kind of thing has a tendency to backfire.

[Ka-El]

But isn't that what the people throwing rocks and bear spray, and attacking cops doing? They are stopping bigotry....just ask them.

They are breaking the law. Just arrest them.

What the protesting groups need to do is protest, AND self police themselves. Don't block roads and create conflicts, show in numbers that the rational calm people that are accepting of all people and vastly outnumber the few real racists, that would get attention. Until then it's just two separate hate groups looking for a fight.

No argument there

[Ka-El]

Not a single Jew spontaneously combusted by hearing any of Hitler's animated Jew-hating speeches. ...a few more factors were involved.

Yes, but that’s where it started.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”.

History has shown us the truth in that statement

[Glacier]

Not a single Jew spontaneously combusted by hearing any of Hitler's animated Jew-hating speeches. ...a few more factors were involved.

Yes, but that’s where it started.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”.

History has shown us the truth in that statement

Yes, you're both right. Instead of cowering and remaining silent, and instead of forcing others to remain silence, we need to use our free speech to fight back against evil speech. It is only when everyone freely expresses their opinions that the truth comes to light. If the "good side" shuts down the other side through force or shuts itself down through self-sensorship, the bad side wins.

[sobrohusfat]

Not a single Jew spontaneously combusted by hearing any of Hitler's animated Jew-hating speeches. ...a few more factors were involved.

Yes, but that’s where it started.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”.

History has shown us the truth in that statement

I can also see the potential evil repercussions lurking behind these "...likely to lead to..." and "...which appear to be..." laws.

This too is "where it starts"

[Ka-El]

I'm just going to leave it where Glacier says we're both right

[sobrohusfat]

...i forgive you.


lol