Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Verum
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Dizzy1 wrote:
HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I know this is the standard response and it makes sense in a lot of situations not so much sense in many other situations. The world isn't this black and white, sadly.

Baloney - there is no "situation" where it doesn't make sense. North America is founded on the very principle that people with absolutely nothing and in situations much worse than today were able to make a better life for themselves :up:

Not everyone is in a position to do much to better their situation, with many people having disabilities, and other barriers which may make it either exceedingly difficult or essentially impossible to improve their lot in life.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Verum wrote:Not everyone is in a position to do much to better their situation, with many people having disabilities, and other barriers which may make it either exceedingly difficult or essentially impossible to improve their lot in life.

Hard? Yes. Impossible? No.

Helen Keller
Ralph Braun
and multitudes of others.

https://www.bellevuecollege.edu/drc/success-stories/

So how come they were able to make a change?
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

Post by HorganIsMyHero »

Dizzy1 wrote:https://www.bellevuecollege.edu/drc/success-stories/

So how come they were able to make a change?


You realize this website is about people gradding from college with multiple accommodations afforded to them? Their work lives are not mentioned, only their plans. Hopefully they actually have jobs, but who knows.
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Verum
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Dizzy1 wrote:
Verum wrote:Not everyone is in a position to do much to better their situation, with many people having disabilities, and other barriers which may make it either exceedingly difficult or essentially impossible to improve their lot in life.

Hard? Yes. Impossible? No.

Helen Keller
Ralph Braun
and multitudes of others.

https://www.bellevuecollege.edu/drc/success-stories/

These are cases of exceptionally driven, intelligent people, who had significant support networks and were, quite frankly, with exception of their disabilities, extremely lucky. It is unreasonable to expect similar from most people with barriers, even where those barriers are often less obvious or apparently less severe. We don't expect every person who gets ALS to become the next Stephen Hawking, nor do we expect everyone who is born deaf and blind to be able to earn a degree. In fact, the fact that we can point to these very few exceptional people as without having overwhelmingly large numbers of examples, despite the vast multitudes of others in similar position who never amount to such greatness, shows how essentially impossible it is for most people with similar barriers to achieve such success.

ETA: This is not to say that they should not try, but expecting success against the odds is as much folly as accepting defeat when there is significant chance.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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"Don't 'p' down my neck then tell me it's raining!"
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Inspiring, perhaps, though also misleading. When you look at all of those who succeeded and reached the stars, you are failing to see all of those who tried as hard and failed equally hard. Essentially suffering from survivor bias. For each and every Bill Gates, there are many thousands who will try just as hard, who will be just as brilliant, and never amount to anything much. Pretending that all one needs to do is to be smart and hard working to be significantly financially successful is ignorant. We do not live in a meritocracy and while I would not diminish the efforts of those who have successfully pulled themselves up by their boot straps, it requires ignoring huge amounts of evidence to pretend that anyone, and especially those with barriers could reasonably expect do the same.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Dizzy1 wrote:
HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I know this is the standard response and it makes sense in a lot of situations not so much sense in many other situations. The world isn't this black and white, sadly.

Baloney - there is no "situation" where it doesn't make sense. North America is founded on the very principle that people with absolutely nothing and in situations much worse than today were able to make a better life for themselves :up:


Yup. Thankfully the minimum wage was increased over the years so folks could keep a roof over their heads while working harder to make things better.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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GrooveTunes wrote:Yup. Thankfully the minimum wage was increased over the years so folks could keep a roof over their heads while working harder to make things better.


It went from $8 to $11.35 within the last 15 years or so. A raise of $3.35 over a decade and a half is pretty bad.

I guess as long as the people aren't eating lobster every night and don't buy 5 TVs and 10 Xboxs things will work out.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I guess as long as the people aren't eating lobster every night and don't buy 5 TVs and 10 Xboxs things will work out.

Part of the problem is that thats exactly what some people who are making minimum wage are doing :up:
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

Post by HorganIsMyHero »

Dizzy1 wrote:
HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I guess as long as the people aren't eating lobster every night and don't buy 5 TVs and 10 Xboxs things will work out.

Part of the problem is that thats exactly what some people who are making minimum wage are doing :up:


I know what you mean. I keep telling my buddies who make minimum wage to stop buying hordes of 65" Sony Bravia TVs but they just won't stop. They say lobster only tastes good when it's eaten off of an expensive TV.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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These are cases of exceptionally driven, intelligent people, who had significant support networks and were, quite frankly, with exception of their disabilities, extremely lucky. /quote]
Those are cases of people who simply had a change of attitude and decided to make something of their lives despite obstacles. Nothing more, nothing less. Its all about being personally driven - simple concept to those who've gone through this understand.

The rest of your post “lucky”, “intelligent” are nothing but excuses.

At one point in time, I was making minimum wage too. I saw people much older than me working in the same place I was, making next to peanuts - when I looked at them, I told myself I won't end up like that - so, despite dropping out of school, I went back to school, applied at jobs that offered me a possible learning experience and now I'm making six figures a year. I too, could have stayed where I was, but I decided to find my drive and get out of it.

A friend of mine flies commercially. He came from nothing, had a serious eye sight problem and was on his own since he was 14 - yet he somehow managed to finance $80 000 of schooling a licensing, get his eyes fixed and now he's fulfilled his dream.

Funny how success only seem to happen to those who fight for it and not those who just sit and complain about life being not fair.
Last edited by Dizzy1 on Jan 5th, 2018, 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

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HorganIsMyHero wrote:
I know what you mean. I keep telling my buddies who make minimum wage to stop buying hordes of 65" Sony Bravia TVs but they just won't stop. They say lobster only tastes good when it's eaten off of an expensive TV.

Why do you think rent to own places are so popular? You think the financially well off are paying $1000 for a $400 PS4?
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

Post by Verum »

Dizzy1 wrote:

These are cases of exceptionally driven, intelligent people, who had significant support networks and were, quite frankly, with exception of their disabilities, extremely lucky. /quote]
Those are cases of people who simply had a change of attitude and decided to make something of their lives despite obstacles. Nothing more, nothing less. Its all about being personally driven - simple concept to those who've gone through this understand.

The rest of your post “lucky”, “intelligent” are nothing but excuses. You can call it that, but the facts don't support you. Not in the least little bit. To pretend that others don't work as hard, with similar intellect to yourself and still do worse than you is just simple hubris.

At one point in time, I was making minimum wage too. I saw people much older than me working in the same place I was, making next to peanuts - when I looked at them, I told myself I won't end up like that - so, despite dropping out of school, I went back to school, applied at jobs that offered me a possible learning experience and now I'm making six figures a year. I too, could have stayed where I was, but I decided to find my drive and get out of it. Good for you. As someone with a similar level income, I have done quite well for myself too. I work hard, study hard, and I am extremely lucky. I was born without major disabilities, I was born smarter than most, I had some lucky breaks and many opportunities, family with a focus on education and support when others didn't. I have a friend who was smarter and as hard working and he has spent more than a decade in and out of mental institutions. Of course, his lack of financial success is down to being lazy and having a bad attitude, right? I earn good money. I work hard for it, but I am not fool enough to believe I deserve it because I realise that we do not live in a meritocracy, and while those I know who have done well for themselves like to think we do, it is just simple ego driving them to do so. Success might be much more common with hard work and smart decisions, but it is certainly not guaranteed by it.

A friend of mine flies commercially. He came from nothing, had a serious eye sight problem and was on his own since he was 14 - yet he somehow managed to finance $80 000 of schooling a licensing, get his eyes fixed and now he's fulfilled his dream. Good for him too. Now have him have a major car accident while almost finished his schooling, an accident which prevents him ever working as a pilot. Maybe quadriplegia. Do you think he would be just as successful? Maybe he would, but it's more likely that his life would have gone a very different way indeed

Funny how success only seem to happen to those who fight for it and not those who just sit and complain about life being not fair. Which came first though? Most of my peers justify their success as being deserved or on merit, but that's justifying something that's not supported by the data. I don't sit and complain about life being unfair, I live with it, take advantage of it and accept that at any moment, it could screw me over royally. I also don't think that people like myself who have done fairly well for themselves somehow deserve it and earn it. We are where we are because life isn't fair, we have success because life rewarded us, without necessity of merit. Maybe your ego benefits from thinking you deserve it, but intellectual honesty won't allow me to make such pretence.
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Re: Ontario raises minimum wage - Workers Lose

Post by GrooveTunes »

HorganIsMyHero wrote:
GrooveTunes wrote:Yup. Thankfully the minimum wage was increased over the years so folks could keep a roof over their heads while working harder to make things better.


It went from $8 to $11.35 within the last 15 years or so. A raise of $3.35 over a decade and a half is pretty bad.

I guess as long as the people aren't eating lobster every night and don't buy 5 TVs and 10 Xboxs things will work out.


I agree it wasn't fast enough. My response was for Dizzy really.
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