Monuments in Canada to Nazi sympathizers

[GordonH]

^^^ reread my post averagejoe, were I said "2 of the worst"

There is long list of these type of animals (again being kind).
Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc... etc...

[Even Steven]

Oh, I see we're having another "Nazis weren't actually that bad" discussion.

[ferri]

[averagejoe]

Is the removal of this monument part of the leftist agenda to re-write history?
Like all the other statues and monuments that are under attack throughout North America and Europe by leftwing groups?

Censoring history and trying to re-write European history?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/are ... ry-n750526

Rewriting American History

George Orwell said, "The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history." In the former USSR, censorship, rewriting of history and eliminating undesirable people became part of Soviets' effort to ensure that the correct ideological and political spin was put on their history. Deviation from official propaganda was punished by confinement in labor camps and execution.

https://www.creators.com/read/walter-wi ... an-history

Don’t hold Sir John A. Macdonald to 2017’s values

The Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario has brought the commemoration debate from the United States into the public consciousness here. The ETFO recently passed a resolution asking boards in Ontario to consider removing from schools the name of Sir John A. Macdonald, the country's first prime minister and founding father.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion ... e36083430/

[averagejoe]

Oh, I see we're having another "Nazis weren't actually that bad" discussion.

I guess so? Most people are uneducated on the atrocities implemented on the Russian people before Russia was our Ally. And then when a hint of liberation from the Communists arises comes to a inslaved people. They are now scorned for it. And it's not just the Ukraine peoples of Europe.

[averagejoe]

Not one article Merry posted talks about the brutal Russian regime that the Soviet system imposed on all it's people that didn't buy into the communist dream.

[averagejoe]

How about Seattle? A statue to Lenin who is responsible for Millions of deaths throughout Russia and Europe?
This statue isn't in mother Russia...

Statue of Lenin, Seattle



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle

[Jmfva]

How about Seattle? A statue to Lenin who is responsible for Millions of deaths throughout Russia and Europe?
This statue isn't in mother Russia...

Statue of Lenin, Seattle



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle

so because Seattle has a statue we shouldn't clean up statues in Canada?

the thread is Monuments in Canada.

[Merry]

Not one article Merry posted talks about the brutal Russian regime that the Soviet system imposed on all it's people that didn't buy into the communist dream.

Again you're missing the point. Even though the Soviets treated Ukraine badly, that doesn't alter the fact that it is inappropriate to erect monuments here in Canada honouring individuals who fought alongside our enemies during WW2.

Many Canadians and allied personnel died in that war, and it is disrespectful to their memory to erect monuments to those who contributed to those deaths.

If Ukrainians want to honour those folks for their actions in helping to overcome Soviet oppression, then Ukrainians should erect monuments in Ukraine to remind people of what they did. But, given the method they chose to achieve that objective, it is inappropriate to erect such monuments here in Canada.

[Merry]

Is the removal of this monument part of the leftist agenda to re-write history?

No, it is not.

I've never agreed with judging historical figures by today's standards. So, if a historical Canadian figure is found to have some "black marks" in his/her background, along with some significantly important ones that influenced the development of our country, I don't think that's justification for erasing that person from our history. Or for denying his/her contribution to our society. Far from it. Provided BOTH aspects of the person's life are taught, I have no problem with that, so long as the things he or she did are put into their proper historical context. Many things that are unacceptable today, were less so in the past. And it's important to remember that when judging such people.

But the Ukranians who have had monuments erected to them do not fall in that same category. They did not do anything that contributed to the development of Canadian society; rather they are being honoured for the things they did for Ukrainian society. And as the method they used involved fighting with our enemies during the Second World War, that is hardly something Canadians should be honouring them for.

By all means, erect monuments to such people in Ukraine if that's what Ukrainians think is appropriate. But erecting monuments in their honour here in Canada is insulting to the memory of all those who died fighting the Nazi's.

[averagejoe]

Roman Shukhevych was not in the SS Galizien Division as the article tries to make you believe. As a matter of fact he was fighting in anti-communist Ukrainian units long before the Germans even thought of invading Russia. If you actually read his history, he was not a nazi and actually turned on the nazi's. But of course no buddy needs to know that....How do you know he was an nazi sympathizer? They had a common enemy, but it seems he was and his unit was on their own. Interesting reading. Everyone should actually read his history to get an understanding of the situation him and the Ukrainian people faced.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/di ... hRoman.htm

I also tried to look up this Ukraine organization: Nachtigall but couldn't find anything on it. Do you Merry have anything on it? Roman Shkhevych was suppose to be head of it according to the article....best to cross reference a subject instead of accepting someones opinion. Could just be writing on emotion instead of fact....

[Merry]

I guess it depends which encyclopedia you read (my bold).

Roman-Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych (Ukrainian: Рома́н-Тарас Йо́сипович Шухе́вич, also known by his pseudonym Taras Chuprynka, 30 June 1907 – 5 March 1950) was a Ukrainian politician, military leader and general of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), as well as a one-time ally of Nazi Germany and one of the organizers of the Halych-Volhyn Massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

[averagejoe]

I guess it depends which encyclopedia you read (my bold).

Roman-Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych (Ukrainian: Рома́н-Тарас Йо́сипович Шухе́вич, also known by his pseudonym Taras Chuprynka, 30 June 1907 – 5 March 1950) was a Ukrainian politician, military leader and general of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), as well as a one-time ally of Nazi Germany and one of the organizers of the Halych-Volhyn Massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych

Need something better than wikipedia. I like to read real historians or historical records. That would help.

[Merry]

On June 30, 1941, Ukrainian troops, including militiamen loyal to Shukhevych’s, began a series of pogroms against Jews, which they perpetrated under the auspices of the German army, according to Yale University history professor Timothy Snyder and other scholars. They murdered approximately 6,000 Jews in those pogroms.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Ukraine-c ... tor-498159

From 1941 to 1943 Shukhevych served as an officer in the Nachtigall and Roland Battalions, Ukrainian units under German command

http://www.ucrdc.org/HI-ROMAN_SHUKHEVYCH.html

Roman Shukhevych remains a highly controversial and divisive person in Ukrainian history. A freedom fighter and martyr for Ukraine to some, a Nazi collaborator to others.

he was educated as an officer at a German Military Academy in Munich.
From May to September, 1940, Shukhevych joined over 120 other Ukrainian nationalists for training at a secret Abwehr
espionage school in Zakopane, which by then was German-occupied Poland.

He was one of the authors of the OUN blueprint for action for 1941, Borot’ba i diialnist’ oun pid chas viiny [Struggle and Activities of the OUN at Times of War], outlining the establishment of a totalitarian state
through the indiscriminate use of violence, urging the removal of all ‘non- Ukrainians’ living on Ukrainian territory and the liquidation of ‘Polish, Muscovite and Jewish activists

Prior to the invasion of the Soviet Union, German military intelligence set up two small Ukrainian formations:
Sonderformation Nachtigall, and Organisation Roland. Formed in Cracow on March, 2, 1941, the Nachtigall battalion consisted mostly of Ukrainian Nationalists. Established for the purpose of the imminent attack on the Soviet Union, its members received their training at Neuhammer, Silesia. Its volunteers bore German uniforms and weapons, and were attached to the 1st Battalion of the Regiment Brandenburg-800.
Shukhevych not only became the highest-ranking Ukrainian officer in the Nachtigall battalion; he also enjoyed the greatest standing among its Ukrainian members. In the field, Nachtigall was a mixed unit with three companies, each made
up of one German platoon and two Ukrainian platoons. A fourth company appears to have been employed in small groups elsewhere.

Roman Shukhevych personally helped set up the Ukrainian nationalist militia, which played a key role in the L’viv pogrom. Soldiers of Nachtigall partook in the July 1, 1941 L’viv pogrom as well as massacres of Jews in the vicinity of Vinnytsia.

http://portal.research.lu.se/ws/files/1 ... 3_text.pdf

[averagejoe]

Merry wrote: But erecting monuments in their honour here in Canada is insulting to the memory of all those who died fighting the Nazi's.

Just one last thing, I have one last question since your up on the history of the Russia/German campaign.

What Canadian Ally during the war killed or worked to death 50,000 American and British troops?
Never to come home to their loved ones?

That would make that a 100% casualty rate.