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28 killed at elementary school

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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Jan 21st, 2013, 9:32 am

RichardW wrote:How do the numbers look if you take deliberate fatalities for guns vs bicycles?


Well, the story in question dealt with accidental injuries, not deliberate injuries.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 11:26 am

Captain Awesome wrote:
In a country with 300,000,000 firearms and 80,000,000 gun owners, the number of accidental gun fatalities is about 600 per year.
With far less bicycles, we have over 700 bicycle-related fatalities per year.

OMG, let`s totally ban all the bicycles, especially the ones that are designed for one purpose - go fast and KILL KILL KILL! Media is missing out on such a juicy story - more dangerous items stored without regulations and accessible to every kid!




There were 700 TOTAL bicycle related fatalities. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the TOTAL amount of gun related fatalities, 38,000! If bicycles killed 38,000 Americans every year, do you think there would be a call to ban them? You bet there would be! And the only reason to own a bicycle is not to kill something with it.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 4:12 pm

goatboy wrote:
There were 700 TOTAL bicycle related fatalities. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the TOTAL amount of gun related fatalities, 38,000! If bicycles killed 38,000 Americans every year, do you think there would be a call to ban them? You bet there would be! And the only reason to own a bicycle is not to kill something with it.


Selective aren't you Goatboy, the fact is that the 38,000 includes all police inolved shootings and shootings where a criminal is taken out by a armed homeowner, but I guess it's better, in your mind at least, that the homeowners be the ones killed and the perps get away?
I'll state it again "when seconds count police are only minutes away" and you know as well as I do police rarley stop a crime, they just show up to mop up, this quiet little fact is in any police training manual.
So take your pick good the guys die or the bad guys because you won't get the criminals guns but many law abiding citizens will turn them in and then it's open season on the good guys.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Jan 21st, 2013, 4:28 pm

Burglars break into your home to steal items. Serial Killers are lightning strike rare.

What is your "value" limit on a human life Steelrules? You seem to be all-to-happy to shoot someone if they are committing a property crime, so tell the forum your threshold.

What is a acceptable value of a item to kill someone over?

$0-$100?
$100-$500?
$500-$1000
$1000-$2500
$2500-$5000
$5000-$9999
$10000+

...or will you end a life based on the fact they are simply on your property?

Also, I am assuming you own lethal, legal weapons. Pay attention, Castaneters. This guy is your neighbor.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Jan 21st, 2013, 4:37 pm

goatboy wrote:There were 700 TOTAL bicycle related fatalities.


I'm quite sure that all bicycle related fatalities are accidental - unless there's a bike-wielding maniac out there who kills hookers with a tricycle. With training wheels for extra goriness.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:12 pm

SurplusElect wrote:Burglars break into your home to steal items. Serial Killers are lightning strike rare.

What is your "value" limit on a human life Steelrules? You seem to be all-to-happy to shoot someone if they are committing a property crime, so tell the forum your threshold.

What is a acceptable value of a item to kill someone over?

$0-$100?
$100-$500?
$500-$1000
$1000-$2500
$2500-$5000
$5000-$9999
$10000+

...or will you end a life based on the fact they are simply on your property?

Also, I am assuming you own lethal, legal weapons. Pay attention, Castaneters. This guy is your neighbor.



What price do you place on the lives of your children? and don't be a mo-ron we're talking about justifiable shootings and that's never over property, you know the kind to save your own or loved ones lives, or do you subscribe to what they teach in schools now, where your supposed to curl up in a little ball on the floor while your being beat and never fight back?
I'm sorry about your upset stomach over guns but truth is they save more lives than they take.
And one more thing my neighbours are very happy and sleep well at night knowing I'm here for a number of reasons.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:13 pm

steelrules wrote:
Selective aren't you Goatboy, the fact is that the 38,000 includes all police inolved shootings and shootings where a criminal is taken out by a armed homeowner, but I guess it's better, in your mind at least, that the homeowners be the ones killed and the perps get away?
I'll state it again "when seconds count police are only minutes away" and you know as well as I do police rarley stop a crime, they just show up to mop up, this quiet little fact is in any police training manual.
So take your pick good the guys die or the bad guys because you won't get the criminals guns but many law abiding citizens will turn them in and then it's open season on the good guys.



OK, you hang onto the notion that having a gun in the house will lessen your chance of death, when in reality, you're more likely to be killed by your own weapon than use it to save yourself. I agree that if you were ever to need it, it could save your life, but the risk of you being killed by your own weapon far outweighs any possible advantage. I'm also being general here and talking averages, you may be an extremely responsible, well trained and balanced individual, but on average the downside outweighs the upside.

BTW, there is on average 400 fatalities per year caused by police shootings and maybe the same amount justified by victims, so how about we be generous and reduce the amount to 35,000 instead of 38,000.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:15 pm

steelrules wrote:

I'm sorry about your upset stomach over guns but truth is they save more lives than they take.
.


I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous statement made so far.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:17 pm

steelrules wrote:What price do you place on the lives of your children? and don't be a mo-ron we're talking about justifiable shootings and that's never over property, you know the kind to save your own or loved ones lives, or do you subscribe to what they teach in schools now, where your supposed to curl up in a little ball on the floor while your being beat and never fight


You feel you need to stockpile weapons because (you fear) a serial killer is going to break into your house and - try and kill your kids.

Legal gun owner, eh?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:18 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
I'm quite sure that all bicycle related fatalities are accidental - unless there's a bike-wielding maniac out there who kills hookers with a tricycle. With training wheels for extra goriness.


That's my point, you can't compare the two statistics as they have no correlation between each other. Gun control is not about reducing accidental gun deaths, it's about reducing deliberate gun deaths.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:23 pm

goatboy wrote:Gun control is not about reducing accidental gun deaths, it's about reducing deliberate gun deaths.


No, it's not. Gun control hype is about political careers, making people feel better about themselves, and doing heck-all about reducing number of gun deaths. Otherwise they'd be focusing on banning handguns that cause vast majority of deaths in the country as opposed to banning sporting rifles that look scary. Go democracy! America, f*** yeah! *


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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:31 pm

goatboy wrote:
I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous statement made so far.


No at all, where are the stats. for the shop owners in ghetto areas that are known to have a firearm under the counter and hece never get shot up or robbed, where are the stats for the young mom that is forced to use a gun to save the lives of her children.
The only thing that's rediculous is the belief that taking guns away from law abiding people does anything but create victims.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Jan 21st, 2013, 5:32 pm

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics ... art/61217/

15-Year-Old Who Killed His Family with an AR-15 Had a Plan to Attack Walmart

Authorities believe Nehemiah then put several loaded weapons, including the assault rifle, in the family van with the plan to drive to the nearest Walmart, gun down more people and eventually die in a shootout with police," report The Albuquerque Journal's Jeff Proctor and Patrick Lohmann. The Journal also reports that Griego called a friend before carrying out the rest of his plan, and that the friend got Griego to meet him at the church where Griego's father was a pastor.


The two guns used in the shooting — an AR-15 assault rifle and a .22 caliber pistol — seem to have belonged to Griego's parents.


And don't blame video games, because Griego was not allowed to play them. Again, from Proctor and Lohmann's Journal reporting. Nehemiah wasn’t allowed to play violent video games, the neighbor said, since the boy’s parents didn’t allow anything “dirty or violent” and limited TV watching.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 6:26 pm

This video should end this forum once and for all.
Why Martin Luther King never jumped on the gun grabber bandwagon.
http://www.2ndamendmenttv.com/videos/ci ... heard.html
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby RichardW » Jan 21st, 2013, 7:15 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:No, it's not. Gun control hype is about political careers, making people feel better about themselves, and doing heck-all about reducing number of gun deaths. Otherwise they'd be focusing on banning handguns that cause vast majority of deaths in the country as opposed to banning sporting rifles that look scary. Go democracy! America, f*** yeah! *


-----
* - That is an actual quote from a movie, not me typing around the filter.


In my mind, your bicycle comparison was a bit wayward, but you make a fair point that banning just the (to use your word) 'scary' weapons won't really cut the mustard in the end.

However, it strikes me that America needs to get round to addressing its love of guns. A tiny and almost useless first step is better than no step at all.
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