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28 killed at elementary school

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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 7:24 pm

Here are the facts.
Since 1991, the number of privately owned firearms in the U.S. has increased by about 50 million, the number of right-to-carry states has increased from 15 to 37, and violent crime has decreased every year.

Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds. Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.

Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.

For every accidental death, suicide, or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through defensive use.

In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year. Read more...

After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the “breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate.

In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. Rapes dropped by nearly 90% the following year.

Gun ownership is slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.

Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate.

Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker killed.

Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.

Two-thirds of the people who die each year from gunfire are criminals being shot by other criminals.

Even banning guns does not slow down criminals. In the U.K., where private ownership of firearms is practically forbidden, criminals have and use guns regularly, and even build their own. One enterprising fellow converted 170 starter pistols to functioning firearms and sold them to gangs. Hundreds of such underground gun factories have been established, contributing to a 35% jump in gun violence.

States that adopted nondiscretionary concealed-handgun laws saw murders decreased by at least 8%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robberies by 3%. The murder rates of women permit-holders fell by as much as five times the drop of their male counterparts.

The first gold medal awarded at the Summer Olympics goes to the winner of a shooting competition.

Eight U.S. Presidents have been NRA members. They are Ulysses S. Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Jan 21st, 2013, 8:10 pm

steelrules wrote:Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun.


Verifiable fact?

Can you cough up 2500 "near rape's that were prevented by a vigilant gun owner" news stories from this past week gone by?

By your numbers there should have been 3850 rape attempts thwarted by gun owners this week.

I'll give you a break on the numbers because obviously not every single one of these "almost rape victims" are going to report that they flashed a gun at a would-be-rapist (so how did this study find out about them?) so you should be able to come up with at least 2500 cases this week, right?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 8:22 pm

Given that all your "facts" were from the NRA-ILA (Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the "lobbying" arm of the National Rifle Association of America) website, I'll take them with a grain of salt.

However, here's a thought, if " Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds", then that's once EVERY YEAR per 120 Americans. If Kelowna was in the US, that would mean a gun was used to stop a crime 1044 times each year!!!! But no, there's no gun problem in the US.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 21st, 2013, 10:59 pm

But the mother didn't need to worry about someone breaking in and killing her son because she had a gun for protection.

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-86212-4-.htm#86212
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 21st, 2013, 11:37 pm

goatboy wrote:But the mother didn't need to worry about someone breaking in and killing her son because she had a gun for protection.

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-86212-4-.htm#86212


This is proof of what? unsafe storage and nothing else.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby RichardW » Jan 21st, 2013, 11:50 pm

steelrules wrote:This is proof of what? unsafe storage and nothing else.


But now your argument has encountered a difficulty. On the one hand, guns must be stored safely, and on the other they must be ready for self defence. Which is it to be?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 22nd, 2013, 7:34 am

RichardW
I have never once in this forum said my firearms are for self defence, dispite that many kooks on this forum want to paint me that way, I have in fact argued for the 2nd amendment and the right to self defence in the US.

Even though we Canadians also have the right to self defence, the gun grabber kooks want that fact hidden and not spoken aloud that others would become informed of their right.

Canadian firearm storage regulations make my firearms completely inaccessible sould I ever need them for defence, like in an armed home invasion.

I guess it's better in some peoples minds to just curl up in a ball on the floor and let the criminals rob rape and kill you, "but don't you dare fight back", this to me is the definition of a sick society.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 22nd, 2013, 7:37 am

steelrules wrote:This video should end this forum once and for all.
Why Martin Luther King never jumped on the gun grabber bandwagon.
http://www.2ndamendmenttv.com/videos/ci ... heard.html
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 22nd, 2013, 9:48 am

steelrules wrote:RichardW
I have never once in this forum said my firearms are for self defence, dispite that many kooks on this forum want to paint me that way, I have in fact argued for the 2nd amendment and the right to self defence in the US.

Even though we Canadians also have the right to self defence, the gun grabber kooks want that fact hidden and not spoken aloud that others would become informed of their right.

Canadian firearm storage regulations make my firearms completely inaccessible sould I ever need them for defence, like in an armed home invasion.

I guess it's better in some peoples minds to just curl up in a ball on the floor and let the criminals rob rape and kill you, "but don't you dare fight back", this to me is the definition of a sick society.


Cost vs benefit. The benefits of having a gun stored in such a way as being useful to defend yourself are outweighed by the chances of that same gun being used against you or someone else in your household. How many people do you know that have ever been in a situation where they had to curl up in a ball on the floor and let the criminals rob, rape and kill you? I agree that some of the gun control scare tactics are just that, but your assertion that guns save more lives than they take is just as ridiculous.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:28 am

Laughable goat boy!
Why don't you address the fact that police only stop a crime by sheer dumb luck, by stumbling on to it.
That the main job of police is cleaning up after the crime has been commited.

Examples,
Prohabtion
War on drugs
War on terror
Sandy Hook
And every other mass shooting in US history because police are never where they are needed and the people are defenceless in "gun free zones" or disarmed by kook gun grabbers.

Yeah if I was a cop I'd be real proud of that sucess rate and in knowing that I push for victim zones aka. gun free zones.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:17 am

steelrules wrote:Laughable goat boy!
Why don't you address the fact that police only stop a crime by sheer dumb luck, by stumbling on to it.
That the main job of police is cleaning up after the crime has been commited.

Examples,
Prohabtion
War on drugs
War on terror
Sandy Hook
And every other mass shooting in US history because police are never where they are needed and the people are defenceless in "gun free zones" or disarmed by kook gun grabbers.

Yeah if I was a cop I'd be real proud of that sucess rate and in knowing that I push for victim zones aka. gun free zones.


Well, most violent crime in the US is not random against strangers. Do you have any stats on how many stranger involved rape and murders actually happen in a year? The argument for gun control of automatic weapons is just as false as the "I need a gun for self defence argument". Both sides are wrong in this regard. Reality is you don't need a gun for self defence unless you're a criminal. The real problem, which is going to take decades (if ever) to fix, is the sheer volume of guns that are now in the US and the culture of using them.

What really boggles my mind is why someone would want to live in a country, where according to you, you MUST have a gun to feel safe. No thanks, it's just like living in Somalia or Bogotá, which if the gun lobby has it's way is what the US is going to be like.

Fear mongering is happening on both sides.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:35 am

steelrules wrote:Here are the facts.
Since 1991, the number of privately owned firearms in the U.S. has increased by about 50 million, the number of right-to-carry states has increased from 15 to 37, and violent crime has decreased every year.

Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds. Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.

Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.



Interesting analysis of this claim of 2.5 mIllion defensive uses of a firearm. More likely number is 108,000. Read for yourself and make your own call. Defensive Gun use starts on page 8

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:36 am

goatboy wrote:The argument for gun control of automatic weapons is just as false as the "I need a gun for self defence argument".


Automatic weapons have been outlawed for decades.

We're not talking about simple sporting rifles that just look scary.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Jan 22nd, 2013, 12:25 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Automatic weapons have been outlawed for decades.

We're not talking about simple sporting rifles that just look scary.


Yes, my mistake, meant semi automatic assault rifles.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Jan 22nd, 2013, 8:03 pm

goatboy wrote:Yes, my mistake, meant semi automatic assault rifles.


Listen, I'm not trying to pick your logic apart, or twist your words. But when you say "semi automatic assault rifle" it sounds inane. There's no such thing as semi-automatic assault rifle. If you're talking about assault rifle - the rifles military uses - they've been banned for decades, and not coming back. But semi auto rifles? They're only defined by how they operate - they all have detachable magazine, they're all powered by recoil or gas from spent cartridge/round. After that we're talking cosmetic differences - pistol grip or bayonet, or plastic railing.

All of these rifles operate the same way and can be classified as sporting rifles:
Image

Image

Image

In reality, despite the looks, they are very similar. So when people say "Let's ban semi-autos" they say "let's ban scary looking guns along with guns that farmers use, .22 plinkers, and semi-auto shotguns every other hunter uses". It's impossible.

Reducing magazine capacity does have some merit though - and I've said it before. But "banning semi-autos" is virtually impossible.
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