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28 killed at elementary school

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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Feb 21st, 2013, 5:13 pm

Glacier wrote:those stats seem to say that both jimsenchuk and goatboy are wrong. ie. no correlation between guns and crime.


No, what the Stats say is that there is no correlation between guns and crimes when comparing the US and Switzerland. There is an obvious correlation within each country, it is just at opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 6:51 pm

The Swiss are socially progressive, educated and have one of the worlds best social service systems.

The Swiss also stay out of wars. They don't start them. The Swiss are not known for starting fights in bars, or talking loudly and ignorantly in foreign restaurants.

There is more to a country than population and number of guns, sheesh.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Glacier » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:41 pm

goatboy wrote: There is an obvious correlation within each country.

No there isn't. For example, people point out that Chicago has one of the worest crime rates and at the same time, one of the stricted gun controls in the states. People try to say that the strict gun controls have created high crime, but in actual fact, it's the other way around... high crime creates strict gun controls.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby jennylives » Feb 21st, 2013, 7:44 pm

Chicago is not an Island though. Nationwide laws would likely have a stronger effect.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 8:32 pm

I watched a CBC piece on gun laws and Chicago and most of the people interviewed said that the gun laws have no effect and most people seemed to laugh at the idea, because everyone just goes outside of city limits.

I think this one gun shop sold 70% of the guns used in crimes in Chicago, across the street from Chicago city limits...so I agree with what Jenny said.

I'll have to find the video. Alot of people also thought that the gun laws wouldn't work because crime is just bad everywhere down there. The correlation between poverty and crime, social costs, racism and prohibition that relate to gun violence are problems that won't be fixed in a gun law.

There is a trillion dollar industry and economy that is regulated with the illegal use of firearms that exists on every block of every street in the US.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Feb 21st, 2013, 8:37 pm

SurplusElect wrote:The Swiss are socially progressive, educated and have one of the worlds best social service systems.

The Swiss also stay out of wars. They don't start them. The Swiss are not known for starting fights in bars, or talking loudly and ignorantly in foreign restaurants.

There is more to a country than population and number of guns, sheesh.


Hey, we agree. I'm 100% behind your statement. However....(you knew they'd be one, right?) to change the culture in the US to one closer to the Swiss will require the de-glorifying (is that a word) of the gun in American culture, and to do that, the availability of guns must be limited to start with. Only when the culture of the country changes can you start to take guns out of the crime equation.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Feb 21st, 2013, 8:45 pm

Glacier wrote:No there isn't. For example, people point out that Chicago has one of the worest crime rates and at the same time, one of the stricted gun controls in the states. People try to say that the strict gun controls have created high crime, but in actual fact, it's the other way around... high crime creates strict gun controls.


Chicago gets used a lot as an example of why gun control doesn't work, but what about New York. Tough gun laws in New York and their crime rate is not out of control like Chicago's. There's obviously a lot more at play in Chicago than the just the inability to carry a gun.

I just don't know a blunter way of putting it. The US has the 11th highest gun death per capita in the ENTIRE WORLD (and arguably the highest of any western 1st world country) and the #1 gun ownership in the ENTIRE WORLD. There MUST be a connection there somewhere.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Glacier » Feb 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm

goatboy wrote:There MUST be a connection there somewhere.

A connection between gun crime and guns ownership, absolutely. A connection between crime rates and gun ownership, no. A connection between homicide rates and gun ownership, again no.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Feb 21st, 2013, 9:04 pm

goatboy wrote:Only when the culture of the country changes can you start to take guns out of the crime equation.


Exactly, I was saying how saying "there are lots of guns in Switzerland (pick a country) and it's safe" doesn't apply because we are talking about Americans and not the Swiss.

America needs serious training wheels with their guns.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Feb 21st, 2013, 10:26 pm

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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Feb 21st, 2013, 11:16 pm

steelrules wrote:.


Way too simplified, but good try.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby logicalview » Feb 21st, 2013, 11:42 pm

SurplusElect wrote:The Swiss are socially progressive, educated and have one of the worlds best social service systems.

The Swiss also stay out of wars. They don't start them. The Swiss are not known for starting fights in bars, or talking loudly and ignorantly in foreign restaurants.

There is more to a country than population and number of guns, sheesh.


I just love how leftist extremists use countries like Switzerland and other racially homogenized countries and say the answer to everything is to "just be like them". How about this - flip it around - take 10 million disenfranchised black and Latino men currently operating in gangs or sitting in prisons in the US and drop them, overnight, in Switzerland, or Sweden, or Finland. See how well their gun crime stats do after that. Trying to compare some uber white bunch of yodelling chocolate makers to the US is just silly, the two countries have completely different thnic makeups and entirely different social problems. Solve the issues of black and Latino disenfranchisement, and gun crime goes down in the US. It's that simple.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Feb 22nd, 2013, 9:07 am

logicalview wrote:I just love how leftist extremists use countries like Switzerland and other racially homogenized countries and say the answer to everything is to "just be like them". How about this - flip it around - take 10 million disenfranchised black and Latino men currently operating in gangs or sitting in prisons in the US and drop them, overnight, in Switzerland, or Sweden, or Finland. See how well their gun crime stats do after that. Trying to compare some uber white bunch of yodelling chocolate makers to the US is just silly, the two countries have completely different thnic makeups and entirely different social problems. Solve the issues of black and Latino disenfranchisement, and gun crime goes down in the US. It's that simple.

:rate9:
And till the world is all unicorns and rainbows with no more criminals, gangs and preditors, decent law abiding people have the right to firearms and the right to self defence in the US.
So just as soon as you gun grabbers and socialists solve the US's societal economic and crime problems we'll turn in our semi-autos, till then leave decent folk alone!
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Feb 25th, 2013, 9:59 am

At the same time the US government DHS has purchased over a billion .40 cal. hollow point rounds, at the same time the government is trying to disarm Americans, at the same time DHS bought 7000 AR 15's for personal defence.
The DHS has purchased over 2 million dollars worth of these targets.
They sure don't look like terrorists to me.
http://www.examiner.com/article/company ... s-training
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Feb 25th, 2013, 12:45 pm

steelrules wrote:The DHS has purchased over 2 million dollars worth of these targets.
They sure don't look like terrorists to me.
http://www.examiner.com/article/company ... s-training


Actually that is completely not true.The company that makes these targets has recieved $2 million in contracts from DHS, not for these targets. Yet another misrepresentaion from the gun happy crowd. Get your facts straight.

Image

"Law Enforcement Targets Inc. (LET), a Minneapolis based company that has received almost $2 million dollars in contracts from the Department of Homeland Security over the last three years, recently began selling cardboard cut-out targets designed to desensitize police to “non-traditional threats,” including pregnant women, mothers in school playgrounds, and little boys, as well as elderly gun owners in their homes."
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