48776

Another shooting rocks the world

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby the truth » Nov 6th, 2017, 2:47 pm

that's what these people do
"The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell
User avatar
the truth
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 12507
Likes: 7356 posts
Liked in: 4327 posts
Joined: May 16th, 2007, 8:24 pm
Location: kelowna

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 6th, 2017, 2:57 pm

User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 25607
Likes: 2309 posts
Liked in: 7720 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Farmmaa » Nov 6th, 2017, 3:21 pm

Glacier wrote:Well that's one thing that should be changed. No crazy atheists who beat their wives should be allowed own guns.


Facts like this Glacier ?
Are these the 'facts' you want to stick to ?

I did not call him a Christian. I stated that those who attend and teach bible camp are usually Christians.
I think, perhaps, it is a prerequisite to teaching kids about the Christian bible and word of the Christian god.
Usually.

I also have not stated that this was some sort of religious hate crime, attack against Christians or any other theory as to why this occurred.
Farmmaa
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2830
Likes: 1046 posts
Liked in: 2418 posts
Joined: Sep 24th, 2013, 5:46 am

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 6th, 2017, 3:27 pm

Glacier wrote:

Do you really believe this kind of BS?
He is repeating unverified information and then using it to make huge assumptions about the shooter. He basically equates modern psychiatry with communism. Assumes that those who want gun control only want it for people who can legally get guns. Equates getting a paid for education as "indoctrination against the only system that gives them the possibility of success, the free market". He seems to think that children receive medication "for failing to conform to these terrible schools". He even questions if we would have national debt "if we really loved our children". I do not have enough time to go through all of the reasons that this guy is wrong so the only response I can have to someone like him is this:

Anyone who honestly believes that this guy has a clue needs to hit the books, start reading and learn a little about medicine, economics, and education. Just an hour or so should be enough to put even the least educated people at a level far beyond this guy's.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Board Meister
 
Posts: 356
Likes: 182 posts
Liked in: 273 posts
Joined: Oct 5th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Poindexter » Nov 6th, 2017, 3:36 pm

Glacier wrote:


Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for gun advocates, who accused others of politicizing the mass shooting in Vegas, to come out so quickly and politicize the mass shooting in Texas?

Omnitheo likes this post.
User avatar
Poindexter
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 4847
Likes: 2708 posts
Liked in: 3249 posts
Joined: May 26th, 2008, 10:44 am

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 6th, 2017, 3:48 pm

Farmmaa wrote:
Glacier wrote:Well that's one thing that should be changed. No crazy atheists who beat their wives should be allowed own guns.


Facts like this Glacier ?
Are these the 'facts' you want to stick to ?

This is NOT a fact. It's an opinion. I do NOT think anyone who has committed a violent act should be allowed to own guns. Period. This is NOT a fact. I repeat. This is an OPINION. You are free to disagree with an OPINION. I am not saying I'm right to think this and you are wrong to disagree. You are free to disagree with FACTS too, but they're still facts.

Poindexter wrote:Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for gun advocates, who accused others of politicizing the mass shooting in Vegas, to come out so quickly and politicize the mass shooting in Texas?

Have you heard of fivethirtyeight? They used facts and data about guns, and realized that most of the gun laws anti-gun crowed like don't actually stop crimes. Those are facts. You are free to disagree with these facts and call them "political statements", but facts are facts no matter what you call them.

P.S. I do NOT agree with everything Stefan says in the video. I posted to add another voice to the conversation. He's an atheist, btw.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 25607
Likes: 2309 posts
Liked in: 7720 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 6th, 2017, 8:35 pm


sobrohusfat likes this post.
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 25607
Likes: 2309 posts
Liked in: 7720 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby j watson » Nov 6th, 2017, 8:46 pm


2 people like this post.
j watson
Fledgling
 
Posts: 341
Likes: 81 posts
Liked in: 31 posts
Joined: Aug 6th, 2006, 5:27 am

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Queen K » Nov 6th, 2017, 8:56 pm

Wow, it sure is. Non-partison and proposing a solution at the same time.
The NDP Government: 2017 thread is not in the Bickering Room. Money can't buy what I want for Christmas.
User avatar
Queen K
Queen of the Castle
 
Posts: 48518
Likes: 8735 posts
Liked in: 9585 posts
Joined: Jan 31st, 2007, 11:39 am
Location: What? You mean here?

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 6th, 2017, 9:37 pm

Glacier wrote:Have you heard of fivethirtyeight? They used facts and data about guns, and realized that most of the gun laws anti-gun crowed like don't actually stop crimes. Those are facts. You are free to disagree with these facts and call them "political statements", but facts are facts no matter what you call them.

P.S. I do NOT agree with everything Stefan says in the video. I posted to add another voice to the conversation. He's an atheist, btw.

Actually, fivethirtyeight did not realise "that most of the gun laws anti-gun crowed like don't actually stop crimes", they were far less committal than you read it to be. It would be more accurate to say that the studies they examined did not, in their eyes, show that these laws actually did reduce crime. That's quite a different thing indeed. Failing to show effectiveness is not the same as showing ineffectiveness.

Adding a voice to the conversation is not always a good thing. Whether he is an atheist or not has no bearing on whether he has anything of value to add to this discussion and honestly, in the 10 minutes or so of his monologue that I could stomach, I found his empathy laudable and his content tragically laughable. Anyone who honestly claims that having a national debt means that we don't love our children is ignorant of what it means to love someone, and why we might accrue national debt. Hint, it's often for our children that we do it. That he would feel the need to bring up this kind of irrelevant manure in a discussion on a church massacre just shows that he doesn't want to miss a chance to express his ignorant opinion on issues he hasn't a clue about. So, I ask you, what point did he make that was actually of real value and contributes to the discussion and where in the video was it?
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Board Meister
 
Posts: 356
Likes: 182 posts
Liked in: 273 posts
Joined: Oct 5th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 7th, 2017, 11:50 am

The long and short of it is that we need better enforcement of gun laws, not more gun laws. This guy should NOT have been able to get a gun. He should have been in jail perhaps. Existing laws state he shouldn't have had a gun, and yet he did. Enforce existing laws. Adding new laws that are only applied to law abiding citizens who voluntarily obey them does not make anyone safer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/23280/why ... en-shapiro
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 25607
Likes: 2309 posts
Liked in: 7720 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Poindexter » Nov 7th, 2017, 12:05 pm

Glacier wrote:The long and short of it is that we need better enforcement of gun laws, not more gun laws. This guy should NOT have been able to get a gun. He should have been in jail perhaps. Existing laws state he shouldn't have had a gun, and yet he did. Enforce existing laws. Adding new laws that are only applied to law abiding citizens who voluntarily obey them does not make anyone safer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/23280/why ... en-shapiro


He did serve a year in military jail for domestic abuse which obviously didn't help.
The fact he filled out all the required paperwork but still managed to purchase a weapon is something they should address by either charging the gun seller, or changing the way information provided on the paperwork is verified if the seller of the gun did everything appropriately.
User avatar
Poindexter
Lord of the Board
 
Posts: 4847
Likes: 2708 posts
Liked in: 3249 posts
Joined: May 26th, 2008, 10:44 am

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:09 pm

Glacier wrote:The long and short of it is that we need better enforcement of gun laws, not more gun laws. This guy should NOT have been able to get a gun. He should have been in jail perhaps. Existing laws state he shouldn't have had a gun, and yet he did. Enforce existing laws. Adding new laws that are only applied to law abiding citizens who voluntarily obey them does not make anyone safer. http://www.dailywire.com/news/23280/why ... en-shapiro

Do you not see the fallacies in your arguments?
1. The laws as they are are difficult to apply, not least because of the widespread availability of guns.
2. If the current laws are not being enforced, maybe they are unenforceable and better laws are the solution. I doubt that you or I could reasonably recommend what those laws should be.
3. New laws especially when they replace old laws, do not just get applied to and by law abiding citizens, but rather can have more widespread effects, including making it harder for criminals to break the law in the ways they currently can do and easier to catch them when they do. This complaint that laws only affect law abiding people is one of the most often repeated themes by the pro-gun lobby and it is just so obviously wrong. Laws can have widespread consequences, not always good, but they certainly do not just affect law abiding people. This is true even when they are only applied to them.

While it is clear that you were just stating your non-expert opinion, like Shapiro, it is unfortunate that so many non-experts with skin in the game are spouting their opinions without being so clear about their own limitations. We need to bring in real experts, people who understand the situation, people who have studied it in detail and who can provide workable solutions. We need politicians who are willing to put the law in their hands and not just play to their financiers or more extreme supporters. The end result may even mean more guns on the streets, or very few, but doubling down and demanding that more law enforcement is the solution, ignores the fact that while it may be part of the solution, the solution is almost certainly nowhere near as simple as the partisans on both sides would have you believe.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Board Meister
 
Posts: 356
Likes: 182 posts
Liked in: 273 posts
Joined: Oct 5th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Glacier » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:26 pm

Verum wrote:Do you not see the fallacies in your arguments?
1. The laws as they are are difficult to apply, not least because of the widespread availability of guns.
2. If the current laws are not being enforced, maybe they are unenforceable and better laws are the solution. I doubt that you or I could reasonably recommend what those laws should be.
3. New laws especially when they replace old laws, do not just get applied to and by law abiding citizens, but rather can have more widespread effects, including making it harder for criminals to break the law in the ways they currently can do and easier to catch them when they do. This complaint that laws only affect law abiding people is one of the most often repeated themes by the pro-gun lobby and it is just so obviously wrong. Laws can have widespread consequences, not always good, but they certainly do not just affect law abiding people. This is true even when they are only applied to them.

While it is clear that you were just stating your non-expert opinion, like Shapiro, it is unfortunate that so many non-experts with skin in the game are spouting their opinions without being so clear about their own limitations. We need to bring in real experts, people who understand the situation, people who have studied it in detail and who can provide workable solutions. We need politicians who are willing to put the law in their hands and not just play to their financiers or more extreme supporters. The end result may even mean more guns on the streets, or very few, but doubling down and demanding that more law enforcement is the solution, ignores the fact that while it may be part of the solution, the solution is almost certainly nowhere near as simple as the partisans on both sides would have you believe.

You are also not an expert. I agree, bring in real experts, and focus on reducing crime, violence, and murder.

Anyway, the law is not hard to apply. They should have had the guy on the FBI list. He was not there. Experts should figure out what the hell happened here so it never happens again.

BTW, far fewer people are owning guns these days in the USA. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sug ... 82326.html
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 25607
Likes: 2309 posts
Liked in: 7720 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: Another shooting rocks the world

Postby Verum » Nov 7th, 2017, 1:36 pm

Glacier wrote:You are also not an expert. I agree, bring in real experts, and focus on reducing crime, violence, and murder.

Anyway, the law is not hard to apply. They should have had the guy on the FBI list. He was not there. Experts should figure out what the hell happened here so it never happens again.

BTW, far fewer people are owning guns these days in the USA. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sug ... 82326.html

Certainly and I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." Explains why so few people reply to me, and why I might not reply
Verum
Board Meister
 
Posts: 356
Likes: 182 posts
Liked in: 273 posts
Joined: Oct 5th, 2017, 11:31 pm

PreviousNext

Return to World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests