The people of France just don't get it

[The Green Barbarian]

In what is going to be the inevitable scene to be replayed across Europe as their unsustainable social welfare state collapses, the people of France have been rioting over the fact that the government is trying to raise the retirement age by 2 years, to prevent the French pension system from bankrupting the country. Two lousy years. Of course, the people of France don't get it - conditioned for the past 30 years by the socialist mindset, the government is seen as a giant pool of money that never runs out, no matter how long you continue to suck out far more than you put in. So they are rioting in the streets. Over two lousy years of extra work they have to do. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, as I am sure many other countries, facing the same problems as France with equally generous welfare/pension/health plans in place, are going to be forced into the same drastic measures France is being forced into, as their aging populations turn 60 and begin tipping the balance into massive drains on their coffers.

Refinery workers, airport staff, train drivers, teachers, postal workers and guards who supply cash machines went on strike and students set off rowdy protests in a day of action against plans to raise the minimum retirement age to 62 from 60.

At least a million protesters demonstrated in cities across France in the biggest and most persistent challenge to economic reforms anywhere in Europe, where governments are struggling to curb budget deficits and reduce debt mountains.

"To hell with the national debt. We'll give them nothing and we don't give a damn about their AAA!" read one protest sign, referring to the AAA credit rating the government says could be at risk unless it gets its pension shortfall under control.

The protests have blown up into the biggest test yet for Sarkozy, whose popularity ratings are dismal 18 months before a presidential election which polls show the left would win as things stand today.

The unrest has put him under an uncomfortable spotlight as France prepares to take over the G20 presidency in mid-November.

Speaking in the seaside town of Deauville where he met the leaders of Russia and Germany, Sarkozy appealed for restraint as hooded protesters in the southern city of Lyon torched cars and looted shops after using cafe chairs to smash windows.

He said pension reform had been put off too long in France, where unions have a history of crushing such initiatives.

"A head of state has a duty toward the young and vis-a-vis the fundamental imbalances of his country," Sarkozy said.

The CGT union put turnout at 3.5 million, on a par with its record-high estimate for protests earlier in the month. The government said 1.1 million people had turned out.

Prime Minister Francois Fillon said the government was concerned about violence on the fringes of protests. The head of the CFDT union, Francois Chereque, also called for calm.

Police used tear gas to disperse protesters in the Paris suburb of Nanterre, where the mayor said 200 youths set cars on fire and smashed public property. The suburb of Mantes-la-Jolie was hit by similar incidents, media reported.

This week will be critical for Sarkozy's reform and for safeguarding the AAA rating which allows France to finance its large public debt at low market rates.

A majority of voters resent the plan to raise the minimum and full retirement ages by two years to 62 and 67 respectively, and unions are demanding negotiations on the pensions overhaul.

"I want to live my retirement," read one protest poster.

Most analysts expect the law will pass within days and the protests will fizzle out. But the unions, which defeated pension and labor reforms with strikes in 1995 and 2006 with the same passion that saw student protests in 1968 drive out President Charles de Gaulle, say they will press on regardless.

"Tougher guys than (Sarkozy) have backed down" said auto factory worker Patrick Planque, 42, at the main march in Paris.

APPEAL FOR CALM

Fuel shortages hit motorists, with nearly one in three of France's 12,500 gas stations suffering reduced supplies, as refinery strikes went into day eight.

Fillon told parliament measures had been taken to get fuel distribution back to normal in four or five days. The government says it has dipped into a 30-day reserve held by industry but not yet tapped a 60-day strategic reserve.

Roughly half of French train services were cut and 30-50 percent of flights were grounded, but the Paris metro and Eurostar services were running normally.

Police fired tear gas and arrested dozens of rioters in Lyon after a day of running battles, using a helicopter to track gangs and at one stage deploying an armored car. Police arrested 75 people and 25 were hurt, half of them riot police. Rioters burned or overturned about 30 vehicles, police said.

The Paris march ended without reports of major trouble. Police said nine people were arrested for robbing people.

Laurence Parisot, head of industry federation MEDEF, told a news conference the construction, infrastructure and chemicals sectors had been hit, and the head of a group representing small and mid-sized business, Jean-Francois Roubaud, said the economic crisis had left small firms too weak to bear more unrest.

Tuesday was the sixth day of nationwide strikes and protests against pension reform since June, and a last-ditch challenge to Sarkozy before a final Senate vote this week.

Sarkozy hopes the Senate will approve his bill by Friday, after which it needs a last vote by a parliamentary committee.

"We are heading out of the crisis in the sense that the law will be adopted," said Hubert Landiers, political scientist at Paris' Sciences-Po University. "The real question is: how are the parties going to exit this crisis while saving face?"

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6 ... geNumber=1

[WhatThe]

You work your whole life and towards the end, looking forward to retiring, then they want another two years out of you?

So if Canada did that , retire at 67, you still figure that's two measly years, and what if your only a year or two away from the pensionable age, planned for it, sacrified for it, you wouldn't be choked?

I find that hard to believe.

[The Green Barbarian]

You work your whole life and towards the end, looking forward to retiring, then they want another two years out of you?

So if Canada did that , retire at 67, you still figure that's two measly years, and what if your only a year or two away from the pensionable age, planned for it, sacrified for it, you wouldn't be choked?

I find that hard to believe.

I KNEW this would be the reaction to this story!

Well a logical person would think - hmmm....work two more years to get my pension, or cry whine and protest to the point where the government pulls back from the plan, and instead everything goes bankrupt and I get nothing and lose my entire pension. Well that would require the use of logic, something most people don't have. This whole story kind of reminds me of the time a Walmart closed down in Quebec because the staff wanted to unionize, even when they were warned that the Walmart would close if they went ahead with their plans to unionize. After the fact, the guy that tried to organize the union was crying to media about how now he was on welfare because he couldn't get a job. The reporter said "it sure would be nice if Walmart would open in this town so you could get a job there now wouldn't it?" and the guy looked like he was going to cry. People are just so dumb - they just don't get it. They always want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

[mtnman1]

You work your whole life and towards the end, looking forward to retiring, then they want another two years out of you?

So if Canada did that , retire at 67, you still figure that's two measly years, and what if your only a year or two away from the pensionable age, planned for it, sacrified for it, you wouldn't be choked?

I find that hard to believe.

That would depend upon your chores at your workplace. If you packed sacks of coal on your back for a 4 mile hike everyday, that is one thing, but if at 65, you were operating a riding lawnmower on a golf course during the summer season only, that would be a completely different scenario.

[WhatThe]

You work your whole life and towards the end, looking forward to retiring, then they want another two years out of you?

So if Canada did that , retire at 67, you still figure that's two measly years, and what if your only a year or two away from the pensionable age, planned for it, sacrified for it, you wouldn't be choked?

I find that hard to believe.

I KNEW this would be the reaction to this story!

Well a logical person would think - hmmm....work two more years to get my pension, or cry whine and protest to the point where the government pulls back from the plan, and instead everything goes bankrupt and I get nothing and lose my entire pension. Well that would require the use of logic, something most people don't have. This whole story kind of reminds me of the time a Walmart closed down in Quebec because the staff wanted to unionize, even when they were warned that the Walmart
would close if they went ahead with their plans to unionize. After the fact, the guy that tried to organize the union was crying to media about how now he was on welfare because he couldn't get a job. The reporter said "it sure would be nice if Walmart would open in this town so you could get a job there now wouldn't it?" and the guy looked like he was going to cry. People are just so dumb - they
just don't get it. They always want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

I certainly hope you're not calling me illogical or dumb or "I just don't get it".
Trying to blame pensions for govt bankruptcy is absurd as much as it is a red herring for govt waste.
What I did notice is that you didn't touch on my response about how'd you feel.
Does that mean you don't mind being rolled over by govt or are you still forty years from retirement where twoyears means nothing?

[The Green Barbarian]

I certainly hope you're not calling me illogical or dumb or "I just don't get it".
Trying to blame pensions for govt bankruptcy is absurd as much as it is a red herring for govt waste.
What I did notice is that you didn't touch on my response about how'd you feel.
Does that mean you don't mind being rolled over by govt or are you still forty years from retirement where twoyears means nothing?

It's quite obvious you don't get it but that's beside the point here. I do agree with your one point - pensions aren't the only thing dragging down Western governments that have continued to expand their social programs - it's just the first one on the chopping block. It all depends on what you define as "waste". The next up on the chopping block in Europe is going to be all of their millions of people that are currently sitting on welfare, and after that, all of the unionized jobs that only exist due to giant government subsidies. Europe has been the envy of the lazy and unrealistic of the rest of the world for many years now, due to the extremely protectionist job legislation and huge benefits, but what all these people didn't get was that these systems are completely unsustainable. The final core plank of European largesse to fall will be government health care, and that's really going to have a lot of people marching in the street.

As for being "rolled" - it would suck - no doubt - but at some point, reality has to sink in here with the people of Europe. We saw it in Greece only a few months ago, the country was bankrupt, borrowing billions just to pay off its pension obligations, and people were rioting when the government was forced into action to start trimming even a small part of the giant fat content in their social programs. So once again - would I hate it? Yeah probably. Would I understand its a result of an unrealistic system that never should have been set up in the first place as it was never going to work? Yeah probably.

[The Green Barbarian]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/10/2 ... erity.html

The UK is now following suit with massive cut-backs too. Their unions are also going to "fight" though not sure how as they are in the same boat as France - ie start cutting spending or go bankrupt.

[Captain Awesome]

Just shows you that you can't count on anyone in this world, and not your govt for sure. You want a nice retirement? Save for it, invest your money wisely, and build a nice retirement nest. If you do that, you can retire even if your govt cuts OAS or the pension into nothing.

[The Green Barbarian]

Just shows you that you can't count on anyone in this world, and not your govt for sure. You want a nice retirement? Save for it, invest your money wisely, and build a nice retirement nest. If you do that, you can retire even if your govt cuts OAS or the pension into nothing.

wise words - yet so few follow them given so many want to spend everything they make and take no responsibility for their futures, then blame everyone but themselves for when things go awry. Anyone depending on the government for anything should prepare themselves to be woefully disappointed.

[Corneliousrooster]

Anyone depending on the government for anything should prepare themselves to be woefully disappointed.

As a society we depend on the Gov't for everything (whether we like to think so or not) We all pay our "fair share " into taxes and the gov't's at all levels spend more than they are taking in ON TOP of previous obligations for pensions,education, health care, road maintenance etc - you know - socialist stuff that we ALL DEPEND ON

and yes - we are all woefully disappointed in pretty much every instance

You want a nice retirement? Save for it, invest your money wisely, and build a nice retirement nest. If you do that, you can retire even if your govt cuts OAS or the pension into nothing.

I am sure there is many a greek that did just that - but when your country goes broke the value of your "smart investments" and savings tends to follow suit - ask the greeks about their military spending too........somehow they still find money for arms, go figure

[The Green Barbarian]

I am sure there is many a greek that did just that - but when your country goes broke the value of your "smart investments" and savings tends to follow suit - ask the greeks about their military spending too........somehow they still find money for arms, go figure

Not true - if you stay diversified and ensure that you don't put all of your eggs into one basket, you can hedge your retirement portfolio against all kinds of risks such that you can survive a melt-down of your country's economy. There are plenty of multi-national mutual funds out there that are RRSP eligible that can save you if your own country is going down the toilet.

[averagejoe]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/10/20/uk-budget-austerity.html

The UK is now following suit with massive cut-backs too. Their unions are also going to "fight" though not sure how as they are in the same boat as France - ie start cutting spending or go bankrupt.

Another story on the UK from the BBC.
Looks like the UK is thinking the same way as France...

Quote from the article..
The pension age will rise sooner than expected, some incapacity benefits will be time limited and other money clawed back through changes to tax credits and housing benefit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11579979

[NAB]

I am sure there is many a greek that did just that - but when your country goes broke the value of your "smart investments" and savings tends to follow suit - ask the greeks about their military spending too........somehow they still find money for arms, go figure

Not true - if you stay diversified and ensure that you don't put all of your eggs into one basket, you can hedge your retirement portfolio against all kinds of risks such that you can survive a melt-down of your country's economy. There are plenty of multi-national mutual funds out there that are RRSP eligible that can save you if your own country is going down the toilet.

LOL. You hang on to that belief Barbarian. And I truly wish you luck with it.

Nab

[Al Czervic]

Of course in fairness to the French they are probably laughing at us rebelling of over what is essentially a VAT (value added tax similar to our HST) and complaining about the 12% HST rate when in France they have had value added taxes for something like 40 years and currently the base rate in France is 19.6%..... So in many effect what seems crazy to us may not seem crazy to them and vice versa. It’s all relative.

[grammafreddy]

I don't know if any of you caught the bit of the French story about the age of a lot of the protesters. They are young - not old or close to pension age. Their reasoning is that by raising the pension age, it will mean fewer jobs for the younger people entering the work force - because the older ones will not be vacating their positions and nobody will be moving up in the job chain.