WW II Germans VS Russians

[The Green Barbarian]

Your wrong! That's what! Nice backpeddle though

I wasn't wrong - not at all.

[Captain Awesome]

Good grief! This is quackery of the highest order.

Quackery? The idea that a US/UK govt would support a militant movement in Germany, help a rising political star (not openly of course), and do everything they can in their power to help him seize the power is quackery? Nothing happens for no reason, and NSDAP rise to power was way too quick to be unaided - it was explosive by any standards. By the way, the above scenario applies to virtually every "colored" revolution that happened in the last 20 years, along with Cold War conflicts - sorry it's too quacky for you.

France did not start building the Maginot line till 1930, and it was done for entirely rational reasons that had nothing to do with Hitler or the Nazis or the state of the German army. It was widely understand in France that Germany, due to its much larger population and higher degree of industrialization, would eventually present a new military threat to France.

In 1928 when Maginot Line was being planned (planned, not being built), Germany was in ruins. It had no army. It had no military industry of any kind. German hands were tied by Versailles treaty. Yet French govt was already so scared of German rise to power they chose to spend a monstrous amount of money (1 billion dollars in 1930's prices) to build it. And it just so happens that the completion time was just around the time when Germany started making their first moves. Nope, Maginot Line was built to channel all of Germany forces to USSR, and make it impossible for him to go anywhere else - just like leaving a snake outside and closing your gates to make sure it crawls into the neighbor's yard, not yours.

Churchill did put forward the idea

Oh nice, apparently an idea of all-out invasion of USSR was being discussed, but silently aiding Germany to do the same and thus reaching your goals by helping somebody do it for you is astounding and quacky. Neat-o.

I am not the naive one. I suspect any neutral observer would have no trouble determining which of us is not only better informed on the subject but also better at assessing what we read.

It's ok, homes. It's not a beauty contest.

[averagejoe]

Whoever said the Soviets weren't aggressive. Try reading what people write, then comment.

Don't say the Soviets weren't prepared!

Here is tapped conversation of Hitler and General Mannerheim of Finland talking about the strength and production the Germans found during Operation Barbarossa. English subtitles. Your historians can make up all the excuses they want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8raDPASvq0


Another video of Hitlers trip to Finland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3f92fvdzQ4

[Corneliousrooster]

I wasn't wrong - not at all.

You claim Canada would never supply an enemy of Britain during a war - I post a link stating otherwise and you are not wrong???? Delusional perhaps then?

[Homeownertoo]

The idea that a US/UK govt would support a militant movement in Germany, help a rising political star (not openly of course), and do everything they can in their power to help him seize the power is quackery? Nothing happens for no reason, and NSDAP rise to power was way too quick to be unaided - it was explosive by any standards. By the way, the above scenario applies to virtually every "colored" revolution that happened in the last 20 years, along with Cold War conflicts - sorry it's too quacky for you. ...

Evidence please.

Let me put this in terms you might understand. If you are to promote some "alternative" narrative to issues that are well documented and understood, you need evidence, not suppositions, which is apparently all you have. Sorry if I don't find your paucity of evidence persuasive. I guess I'm just not quite as naive as you wish I were.

You have made intelligent contributions in other forums, Cap'n, so I am not a little mystified how badly you continue to stumble here. So please address the point that extraordinary claims such as you make require extraordinary proofs, while you have delivered none at all. "Nothing happens for no reason" hardly qualifies. You should know better than offer that.

[The Green Barbarian]

You claim Canada would never supply an enemy of Britain during a war - I post a link stating otherwise and you are not wrong???? Delusional perhaps then?

and yet you didn't post a link that stated otherwise. You didn't comprehend what you posted. Did Canada continue to supply Germany after war was declared? Even in a war I wasn't discussing? Nope.

[averagejoe]

I find this quote at Tehran Conference by Joseph Stalin was rather odd.

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations could never have won the war."[19]

A couple of things. United Nations? And he recognizes that the U.S. was sending them aid from the Lend-Lease agreement.


Americans started to supply Russia from day one. June 22, 1941


American deliveries to the Soviet Union can be divided into the following phases:

"pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941 (paid for in gold)
first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)
second protocol period from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943 (signed 6 October 1942)
third protocol period from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944 (signed 19 October 1943)
fourth protocol period from 1 July 1944, (signed 17 April 1945), formally ended 12 May 1945 but deliveries continued for the duration of the war with Japan (which the Soviet Union entered on the 8 August 1945) under the "Milepost" agreement until 2 September 1945 when Japan capitulated. On 20 September 1945 all Lend-Lease to the Soviet Union was terminated.

The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[16]

Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2½ ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminium, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.[17]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

[averagejoe]

I don't know, history seems to focus in only one minority of casualties versus all the rest where you see a much bigger number of casualties

This an interesting Chart. Especially with the Russian claims? How many deaths do the Russian claim that were blamed on the Germans? A couple of points...

Kaytn Forrest massacre in Poland where the NKVD killed Approx 18,000 Polish Army officers and Government official but blame it on Germans. Russia admitted 1989 that it was Russia that had done the Massacre.

http://katyn.org.au/

Liquidation of Cossacks in Linz Austrian by the NKVD after the war was over. Stalin said when he heard the Cossacks were liquidated. My greatest enemy are just a memory.

http://members.tripod.com/~shtyetz_john ... sacks.html

Yalta agreement...(Operation Keelhaul)

One of the conclusions of the Yalta Conference was that the western Allies would return all Soviet citizens who found themselves in their zones to the Soviet Union. This immediately affected the liberated Soviet prisoners of war,[4] but was also extended to all Eastern European refugees. In exchange, the Soviet government agreed to hand over several thousand western Allied prisoners of war whom they had liberated from German prisoner of war camps.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Keelhaul

So basically Our ally Russia says that if you don't return all Soviet citizens and all Eastern Europeans fleeing Communism. You don't get your POW's back. Nice Ally? So the British and Americans drove over 2.5 million people back to the Soviets. Of which were mostly were killed or sent to to death camps Siberia. So where do these people fit in the chart I wonder?