28 killed at elementary school

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby fall » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:25 pm

prairieflower wrote:My heart breaks for those children & adults killed. My heart aches for the parents who have lost children, family members who have lost family members. My heart breaks for those children who witnessed this horrible tragedy....they will need so much care, love and support to get through this.

This is the tragedy people....sensless slaughter of innocent people because of one mentally ill person.

The US will never stop allowing people to carry guns, there is too much money in it. As someone else stated, put the money into helping the mentally ill who can snap for no reason.

Hugs your kids, spouse, anyone close to you today....you never know what tomorrow brings.


Very nicely put!! I dont even know what to say and feel sick.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby goatboy » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:29 pm

Glacier wrote:Again, correlation does not imply causation.

Sweden has one of the toughest drug laws in the world, and one of the lowest drug related crimes. Does this mean that tough drug laws prevent drug abuse problems? No. The USA also has tough drug laws, and yet they have some of the biggest drug related crimes in the world. Does this mean that tough drug laws mean you get more drug use? Again, no. Correlation does not imply causation.

Switzerland has high ownership, and they have low gun crime. Does this mean that more guns means lower crime? No. The USA has high gun ownership, and they have lots of gun related crime. Does this mean that more guns means more gun crime? Again, no. Correlation does not imply causation.


But correlation of high gun ownership and relative lax gun control has some part of causation. It's not the only, or probably larger part, but it is still part of it.

The bigger issue that I see is the gun culture that has developed in the US. One thing that cannot be argued is that it is very hard to go on this type of shooting spree if you have never fired the type of gun used. Most mass shootings do not involve hunting rifles, but rather hand guns or assault rifles. If someone has never wanted to become familiar with these guns, they are very unlikely to use one. If the culture of the country advocates and encourages the familiarity of these guns, then it only goes to reason that this familiarity will breed individuals that will use them for bad things. If tomorrow I snapped and wanted to go on a shooting rampage, I probably couldn't because 1: I don't have access to the gun and 2: if I could get one I wouldn't know how to use it. Most of these shooters had no criminal records, had no easy access to bad guys who could get them guns illegally.

Switzerland may have high gun ownership, but their culture towards guns is very different than the US.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:33 pm

Time to make it severely difficult to obtain weapons in general. Ban handguns for public use. Obama doesn't have to worry about re-election.

Your ability to hunt and defend yourself "from the English" does not supersede children's right to live.

What kind of society do we wish to live in?
Last edited by SurplusElect on Dec 14th, 2012, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:35 pm

Mama wrote: Guns dont kill, sick people do.


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Re: US gun deaths

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:37 pm

goatboy wrote:The bigger issue that I see is the gun culture that has developed in the US. One thing that cannot be argued is that it is very hard to go on this type of shooting spree if you have never fired the type of gun used. Most mass shootings do not involve hunting rifles, but rather hand guns or assault rifles. If someone has never wanted to become familiar with these guns, they are very unlikely to use one. If the culture of the country advocates and encourages the familiarity of these guns, then it only goes to reason that this familiarity will breed individuals that will use them for bad things. If tomorrow I snapped and wanted to go on a shooting rampage, I probably couldn't because 1: I don't have access to the gun and 2: if I could get one I wouldn't know how to use it. Most of these shooters had no criminal records, had no easy access to bad guys who could get them guns illegally.

Switzerland may have high gun ownership, but their culture towards guns is very different than the US.


My several years spent living south of the border, certainly compels me to agree with that.

Americans are obsessed with their weapons, to the point of them ranking just about as high as air.

It is indeed their culture, and at times sadly, the seed that grows to become something tragic.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 14th, 2012, 3:58 pm

Rwede wrote:Allowed carry laws result in fewer homicides, and the sooner we can adopt such measures, the safer North Americans will be from deranged lunatics.


I think most people would consider the person wanting to carry a weapon on their person "just incase a madman shows up" a lunatic as well.

Generally speaking the people that want weapons are the ones that shouldn't have them. Most of the people who post about less gun laws also post fast and loose about vigilante justice, taking matters into your own hands, revenge justice - etc.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby Glacier » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:01 pm

goatboy wrote:Switzerland may have high gun ownership, but their culture towards guns is very different than the US.

Changing the laws doesn't change the culture though. My father-in-law owns guns in the states, they are locked away in his basement. His state (Alaska) does not allow him to own any full-auto weapons, but he has a semi-auto, but so do I here in Canada. The major difference between him and me, is that he is allow to take his pistol out to the back woods of Alaska and target practice with it, while I can only take mine to and from the range.

There is nothing stopping me from going out and getting a couple of more semi-auto guns and doing what this guy just did in the states - save that it is something so morally repugnant, I wouldn't have even conceived of doing it.

The problem with the quick emotional responses to shootings (like we saw in Quebec many years ago) is that the only people who suffer are the legal law abiding gun owners. Criminals can still easily obtain guns either with gun control.

I'm all for gun regulation (you have to have acquire a permit in order to own a hand gun, etc.), but out right banning hand guns or blaming the gun laws for this tragedy is a bit premature. If this guy had a history of mental illness, then absolutely, let's talk about gun laws being at fault, but let's not be so quick to judge.

The bigger question as you have alluded to already is how do we change a culture of violence? What this guy did (taking out his own mother) is something my neighbour in 100 Mile House did 15 or so years ago... only he was 15 at the time and strung up the body parts of everyone in the house. All because he dad wouldn't let him smoke pot in the house (or so he claimed).
Last edited by Glacier on Dec 14th, 2012, 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:04 pm

Glacier wrote:I'm all for gun regulation (you have to have acquire a permit in order to own a hand gun, etc.), but out right banning hand guns or blaming the gun laws for this tragedy is a bit premature.


Unless you are in the military or a police officer, why do you need a handgun - to shoot at paper?

Your want to shoot at paper targets supersedes society's right to safety?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Glacier » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:05 pm

You don't. I also don't need my rife, nor a 4 bedroom house either. Since when is need a requirement for owning stuff? Society is NOT less safe by me owning a handgun.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:06 pm

Glacier wrote:You don't. I also don't need my rife, nor a 4 bedroom house either. Since when is need a requirement for owning stuff?


I enjoy landmines therefore I should be able to own them.

Handguns are designed to kill humans. Single purpose.

Glacier wrote:Society is NOT less safe by me owning a handgun.


20 dead children say otherwise
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby tgm929 » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:34 pm

Mama wrote: Guns dont kill, sick people do.



Really? How many people do you think this sick person would have killed today without guns?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby tgm929 » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:36 pm

Glacier wrote:You don't. I also don't need my rife, nor a 4 bedroom house either. Since when is need a requirement for owning stuff? Society is NOT less safe by me owning a handgun.


I'm going to guess that your 4 bedroom house didn't kill 20 kids today.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:43 pm

Glacier wrote:You don't. I also don't need my rife, nor a 4 bedroom house either. Since when is need a requirement for owning stuff? Society is NOT less safe by me owning a handgun.


It's not about whether society is less safe with you owning a handgun, its what that ownership does to the culture of that society. If the law regarding their ownership and use is restricitve, over time that will lead to a society less open to them, and that can only be a good thing, can't it. No one is saying you can't hunt, or even to fire a handgun at a gun range, but lets not ingrain the right to them as a fundamental part of our society.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby BriTer » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:44 pm

tgm929 wrote:Really? How many people do you think this sick person would have killed today without guns?


Considering he was out to kill as many as possible, without guns he would have found another way.
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Re: US gun deaths

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 14th, 2012, 4:48 pm

tgm929 wrote:Really? How many people do you think this sick person would have killed today without guns?


If somebody wants to kill 20 children, they can do in a number of ways - they can do it with a handgun, they can do it with a shotgun, they can set the school on fire, they can swing machete, they can poison the water, they can put an explosive charge, and many other ways. You can't blame the tool they're using for the end result because taking away his gun wouldn't stop him from doing it - in fact it could have made it worse. While the thought of everybody around me carrying a gun is somewhat scary (I own a number of them myself but don't carry them around and feel no need to), you can't blame guns for this heinous crime, you have to look at the sick person who did it. You want to ban guns? Sure, but you won't get rid of mass murdering, you'll just shift the way they happen.
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