28 killed at elementary school

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Dec 20th, 2012, 12:21 am

Nebula wrote:What the heck? Could the well armed citizenry angle be not true?


It's true for those obsessed with guns, looking at the picture solely as a right they won't relinquish, regardless the possible consequences to others.
"Death is life's way of saying you're fired!"
LoneWolf_53
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 12496
Likes: 1120 posts
Liked in: 2652 posts
Joined: Mar 19th, 2005, 12:06 pm

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby 797hauler » Dec 20th, 2012, 7:08 am

http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/12/19/ma ... iron-mills :200: :200:

Its just that easy to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, Myself and my family left an hour or so before. so for the naysayers saying your just paraniod and the chances are slim......uh..
User avatar
797hauler
Fledgling
 
Posts: 314
Likes: 13 posts
Liked in: 92 posts
Joined: Nov 20th, 2012, 2:03 pm
Location: somewhere... out in the world.

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Dec 20th, 2012, 7:48 am

Nebula wrote:If a well armed citizenry is the answer to stop mass shootings, then the reverse should be true. A not well armed citizenry should be faced with a sky high murder rate.

Canadians are not well armed, yet our murder rate by guns is very low to the U.S. The British are even less well armed and their firearm murder rate is low.

What the heck? Could the well armed citizenry angle be not true?


Well if you'd actually read a news paper from time to time you'd know that Chicago is a total gun ban city, and guess what there's 10 murders a day.
Yes true.
"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"
Edward R Murrow
Now a proud member of the NRA & Canadian Sport Shooting Association.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
User avatar
steelrules
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2623
Likes: 47 posts
Liked in: 23 posts
Joined: Nov 7th, 2005, 11:09 pm

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 8:32 am

Nebula wrote:If a well armed citizenry is the answer to stop mass shootings, then the reverse should be true. A not well armed citizenry should be faced with a sky high murder rate.

Canadians are not well armed, yet our murder rate by guns is very low to the U.S. The British are even less well armed and their firearm murder rate is low.

What the heck? Could the well armed citizenry angle be not true?



Look what disarming the citizenry in the UK has done.


Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade




By James Slack
UPDATED:03:42 EST, 27 October 2009


Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.


Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'

He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.

The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers, do not include air weapons.

But they provide the first regional breakdown of the increasing use of firearms.

Lancashire suffered the single largest rise in gun crime, with recorded offences increasing from 50 in 1998/99 to 349 in 2007/08, an increase of 598 per cent.

Armed: Officers engaged in routine policing are carrying sub-machine guns for the first time

Only four police forces - Cleveland-Humberside, Cambridgeshire and Sussex - recorded falls in gun crime.

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .

The figures follow a warning by Mr Grayling that U.S.-style gang culture has reached some parts of the UK.


In August, he made a controversial speech warning that a collapse of 'civilised life' had allowed a brutal drug and gun crime culture - like that of the U.S. TV show The Wire - to flourish in Britain.

The hit TV series tracks the nightmare of gangs and organised crime in inner city West Baltimore and the futile efforts of police to deal with them.


The Met's decision to employ armed officers on the streets has attracted criticism.

But the force, which has already begun the scheme, insists that the unprecedented tactic is a proportionate and temporary response to prevent armed gangs from controlling estates.


Trident poster campaign warning of dangers of young women and girls storing and transporting guns for others

Last month, police warned that teenage girls were now being dragged into the gun culture by hiding weapons for their boyfriends.

Police are targeting girls between 15 and 19 with an advertising blitz warning them that they can expect a five-year prison sentence if they are caught.

The number of women charged with firearms offences in London has increased six-fold in the past year - 12 have been charged since January.

Seven of them were teenagers, including a 16-year-old arrested after a 9mm Browning self-loading pistol was found in her bedroom.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2Fbu3u5Sf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
"I don't even disagree with the bulk of what's in the Leap Manifesto. I'll put forward my Leap Manifesto in the next election." - John Horgan, 2017.
User avatar
Rwede
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 11728
Likes: 9542 posts
Liked in: 5124 posts
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:49 am
Location: is everything!

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Dec 20th, 2012, 8:39 am

Rwede wrote:The figures follow a warning by Mr Grayling that U.S.-style gang culture has reached some parts of the UK.


That could also be taken to mean that the US is setting a bad example.
"Death is life's way of saying you're fired!"
LoneWolf_53
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 12496
Likes: 1120 posts
Liked in: 2652 posts
Joined: Mar 19th, 2005, 12:06 pm

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 8:43 am

*off-topic/Jo*
"I don't even disagree with the bulk of what's in the Leap Manifesto. I'll put forward my Leap Manifesto in the next election." - John Horgan, 2017.
User avatar
Rwede
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 11728
Likes: 9542 posts
Liked in: 5124 posts
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:49 am
Location: is everything!

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 8:50 am

Rwede wrote:Look what disarming the citizenry in the UK has done.

I don't see in that article where a correlation was presented between gun laws in the U.K. and a rising murder rate. The article seems to be pointing to a rise in gangs as one of the causes. No proof that 'disarming the citizenry in the UK' has done anything negative.

If a well armed citizenry is the key to reducing the murder rate, then why is the murder rate in Texas (where you can walk around with a gun) about the same as the U.S. national average?
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to arrive at.
User avatar
Nebula
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16288
Likes: 18 posts
Liked in: 125 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2005, 8:52 am
Location: Puzzle Palace

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 8:57 am

The citizenry was disarmed in 1997. The violent crime rate has soared since then.
"I don't even disagree with the bulk of what's in the Leap Manifesto. I'll put forward my Leap Manifesto in the next election." - John Horgan, 2017.
User avatar
Rwede
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 11728
Likes: 9542 posts
Liked in: 5124 posts
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:49 am
Location: is everything!

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 9:02 am

4. Vermont has a genuine right to carry law (i.e., requires no permits) and yet boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the nation

a. Vermont enjoys the 49th lowest crime rate in the nation, according to the FBI:



Violent Crime (1997)
rate per 100,000 people

Rank
State
Rate

1st
Florida
1023.6

2nd
South Carolina
990.3


U.S. average
610.8

49th
Vermont
119.7

50th
North Dakota
87.2




b. The FBI statistics also show that Vermont boasts the 47th lowest murder rate among the 50 states:

Murder (1997)
rate per 100,000 people

Rank
State
Rate

1st
Louisiana
15.7

2nd
Mississippi
13.1


U.S. average
6.8

47th
Vermont
1.5

48th
New Hampshire
1.4

49th
South Dakota
1.4

50th
North Dakota
.9
"I don't even disagree with the bulk of what's in the Leap Manifesto. I'll put forward my Leap Manifesto in the next election." - John Horgan, 2017.
User avatar
Rwede
Walks on Forum Water
 
Posts: 11728
Likes: 9542 posts
Liked in: 5124 posts
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:49 am
Location: is everything!

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 9:04 am

Rwede wrote:The citizenry was disarmed in 1997. The violent crime rate has soared since then.

Oh?

rates.JPG

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales
Maybe the NRA talking points are wrong?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Nebula on Dec 20th, 2012, 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to arrive at.
User avatar
Nebula
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16288
Likes: 18 posts
Liked in: 125 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2005, 8:52 am
Location: Puzzle Palace

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Dec 20th, 2012, 9:07 am

steelrules wrote:
Well if you'd actually read a news paper from time to time you'd know that Chicago is a total gun ban city, and guess what there's 10 murders a day.
Yes true.


Not sure which newspaper you're reading but that is no where near true. There's been 436 murders till the end of October, so more like 1.5 per day, not 10. However, you're right that it's a gun free city with gun murders. There is no one single answer to the problem but arming everyone certainly isn't it.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/29/ ... ars-total/
User avatar
goatboy
Guru
 
Posts: 6018
Likes: 230 posts
Liked in: 1540 posts
Joined: Feb 26th, 2008, 8:56 pm

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 20th, 2012, 9:11 am

Rwede wrote:a. Vermont enjoys the 49th lowest crime rate in the nation, according to the FBI:
b. The FBI statistics also show that Vermont boasts the 47th lowest murder rate among the 50 states:


...it also is 49th in terms of population. Their largest city (Burlington) is smaller than Vernon. It's populated predominantly by old white people (2nd in US in both categories).

Hmmmm, I don't think gun politics have anything to do with Vermont crime rates.
Sarcasm is like a good game of chess. Most people don't know how to play chess.
User avatar
Captain Awesome
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 24998
Likes: 30 posts
Liked in: 3123 posts
Joined: Jul 22nd, 2008, 4:06 pm
Location: The United Colonies of The Lizard People

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Glacier » Dec 20th, 2012, 9:54 am

Wait a second. Are we talking about mass shootings, murder by guns, overall murder rates, or violent crime rates? All of these are four entirely different things.

There is no evidence that more mass shootings result from higher gun ownership. By the same token there is also no evidence that less gun ownership increases mass shootings. Owning guns does not make you violent, nor does it make you less violent. The statistic might be out there - though I'm not aware of it, but does anyone have a breakdown of per capita mass shootings by country? Is the U.S. any higher than Canada, Norway, or Germany?

Also, there is no proof that shoot shootings are on the rise in the U.S. It's quite the opposite really.

shootingss.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
“There's no point in you betraying your future self to gratify your present self. It's a stupid game.”
~Jordan B. Peterson
User avatar
Glacier
Admiral HMS Castanet
 
Posts: 28558
Likes: 3860 posts
Liked in: 10764 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby kibbs » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:02 am

What can we do to stop this from ever happening again ? Nothing no matter what we do history shows it will happen again.and the media will have more meat to chew on.From what I can see this boy was bullied to point where he snapped.we have all been there or at least many of us have .we've done something to relieve our emotional pain .went for a drive, punched a hole in the wall ,whatever .This sad soul had access to a gun that wouldn't just kill a deer or ward off an intruder .This gun held 70 rounds that pierced the walls of a school . IT was enough force to hold off a small army .he shot his way through the locked doors of the school .true militia do not need this kind of problem from ordinary citizens. I don't think we can change the hearts of people . Cruelness towards the weak is inherit in many people.It will happen again someone is going to snap it is inevitable .The question is whats going to be available for he or she does to release their emotional pain with?"If i had a rocket launcher "-Bruce Cockburn
Peace be with you.
User avatar
kibbs
Grand Pooh-bah
 
Posts: 2945
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 1 post
Joined: Oct 30th, 2012, 8:04 am
Location: Washago Ontario

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:02 am

Thank you, Glacier.

There are clearly two sides to this discussion and both present statistics to support their beliefs, however the statistics are suspect.

Canada has more restrictive laws when it comes to gun ownership than the US. Canada has a much lower murder rate by guns than the US. However, I do not believe one can necessarily say that the only reason Canada has a lower murder rate than the US is because it has more restrictive laws. At the same time, I do not believe that gun proponents can honestly say that having more guns out there will reduce the murder rate.

I am not sure what the answer is. There is more at play here than just having or not having guns.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to arrive at.
User avatar
Nebula
Buddha of the Board
 
Posts: 16288
Likes: 18 posts
Liked in: 125 posts
Joined: Jul 6th, 2005, 8:52 am
Location: Puzzle Palace

PreviousNext

Return to World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 1 guest