28 killed at elementary school

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:24 am

Rwede wrote:a. Vermont enjoys the 49th lowest crime rate in the nation, according to the FBI:
b. The FBI statistics also show that Vermont boasts the 47th lowest murder rate among the 50 states:


Captain Awesome wrote:
...it also is 49th in terms of population. Their largest city (Burlington) is smaller than Vernon. It's populated predominantly by old white people (2nd in US in both categories).

Hmmmm, I don't think gun politics have anything to do with Vermont crime rates.



The operative word is RATE, not the number of crimes itself. Lowest legal requirement for concealed carry has equaled nearly the lowest crime rate. Fact.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:28 am

Rwede wrote:The operative word is RATE, not the number of crimes itself. Lowest legal requirement for concealed carry has equaled nearly the lowest crime rate. Fact.

Yet you cannot be sure that the two are directly related. Perhaps a search would reveal that Vermont has the highest rate of red sock ownership... Would that then mean that in order to have a low murder rate you need citizens to have red socks?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:40 am

Rwede wrote:The operative word is RATE, not the number of crimes itself. Lowest legal requirement for concealed carry has equaled nearly the lowest crime rate. Fact.


Rwede, I think you deliberately missed the fact that Vermont has no major cities or metropolitan areas with largest town in the state being around 40,000. Where does most of the crime happens? Ethnically diverse metropolitan areas. Where does the crime almost never happens? In areas where US oldest and whitest people live.

So, the lowest crime rates have nothing to do with gun ownership.

PS: You know, while I despise childish "Let's ban anything that looks scary" posters, you and steelrules with your "Let's arm everybody" backwards *bleep* logic don't do the pro-gun side any favors, that's for sure. Sounds equally if not more childish.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:43 am

Is Nab holding classes in spin doctoring to refute FACTS that don't suit one's agenda?



Gun Ownership - It's The
Law In Kennesaw
By Jonathan Hamilton and David Burch
Marietta Daily Journal Staff Writers
http://www.mdjonline.com/StoryDetail.cf ... ome%20Page
3-14-1


KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.

In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition.

The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."

Then-councilman J.O. Stephenson said after the ordinance was passed, everyone "went crazy."

"People all over the country said there would be shootings in the street and violence in homes," he said. "Of course, that wasn't the case."

In fact, according to Stephenson, it caused the crime rate in the city to plunge.

Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.

"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years."

Mayor Leonard Church was not in office when the law was passed, but he said he is a staunch supporter of it.

"You can't argue with the fact that Kennesaw has the lowest crime rate of any city our size in the country," said Church, who owns a denture-making company in Kennesaw.

The author of the ordinance, local attorney Fred Bentley Sr., attributes at least some of the decrease in crime to the bill.

"I am definitely in favor of what we did," he said. "It may not be totally responsible for the decrease, [but] it is a part."

Although he is pleased with the outcome, Bentley said he was originally opposed to drafting the law.

"I didn't think it could be written in a constitutional fashion," he said. "Obviously, it was constitutional, because the American Civil Liberties Union challenged it in court and we won."

Jones said the ACLU challenged the law in a federal court just after it was passed. In response, the city added a clause adding conscientious objectors to the list of those exempt.

Although the law is now being credited with a drop in crime, Jones said that was not the law's original purpose. He also pointed out that Kennesaw did not have a big problem with crime before.

"The crime rate wasn't that high to start with. It was 11 burglaries per 1,000 residents in 1981," he said.

According to the Kennesaw Police Department, the city's most recent crime statistics show 243 property crimes per 100,000 residents in 1998, or .243 per 1,000.

The city's crime rate continues to be far below other metro Atlanta city's with similar populations, like Decatur. In 1998, Decatur recorded 4,049 property crimes per 100,000 residents.

Jones said one motivation for the council passing the ordinance had to do with publicity.

"It was done in response to a law passed by Morton Grove, Ill., outlawing gun ownership within the city limits," he said. "Several council members were upset Morton Grove had gotten a lot of attention with their ordinance so they decided to top them.

"They figured the gun ownership ordinance would knock that city right off the front pages. They were right."

Jones said the ensuing publicity surrounding the law has given Kennesaw worldwide name recognition.

"I have been to Australia and Europe and when I tell people I am from Kennesaw they recognize the name as the place that requires everyone to own a gun," he said.

But Stephenson said the issue was not publicity-driven but issue-driven.

"We believed in the right of people to own guns," he said.

Jones said he has sold 550 copies of a 1994 book about the first-of-its-kind law, "The Law Heard 'Round the World."

He said the law in its final form has many loopholes, so not everyone is required to own a gun.

"There are many outs," he said. "When you look at it, almost anyone could fit into one of the exempted groups."

Kennesaw Police Chief Dwaine Wilson said no one has ever been prosecuted under the ordinance.

Among those exempt are residents "who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine." Others exempt include the physically and mentally disabled, paupers and those convicted of a felony.

The law contains no clause addressing punishment for violating the law. If convicted, City Clerk Diane Coker said punishment would be determined by the general penalty clause of the Kennesaw Code Ordinance - probably a fine of about $100.

Jones said the unusual law has not deterred anyone from moving to Kennesaw.

"Our population has increased just like everyone's in Georgia in the past 20 years," he said. "The law really hasn't done any harm to the city's growth."

The city's population in 1998 was recorded at 14,493 - a sharp increase over the 8,936 residents recorded in the 1990 census.

Cobb Chamber of Commerce president Bill Cooper said odd laws are typically not counted as strike against a city when a business is looking to relocate.

"These laws don't have laws don't have an impact on a company's decision to move to Cobb County," Cooper said.

"Many communities have strange laws that are out of date. Businesses look at many factors when relocating, such as quality of life, education, infrastructure and available workforce."

Bentley said the law actually may have helped business development.

"Kennesaw is home to more manufacturing businesses than any other Cobb city," he said. "Companies have said they want to be located in conservative areas."

And Kennesaw isn't the only city in Cobb with an unusual law on the books.

According to Jeff Koon, who runs a Web site specializing in funny laws, Dumblaws.com, Acworth has a ordinance requiring residents to own a rake.

In Marietta, it is illegal to spit from a car or a bus, but perfectly legal to spit from a truck.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby steelrules » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:46 am

You know the anti-gun agenda by some on this forum just sickens me.
I posted a solution to these school shootings and was mocked for it buy people that think the guns are the problem.

The solution again is to put an armed retired police officer into the schools, 75% of the time when I drop my kid off or pick her up at school there's a police car there.
I feel safer knowing there's police in the building, and my daughter has a good rapport with the female officer.

So to he ll with those of who want our children defenceless in school.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:50 am

Rwede wrote:Is Nab holding classes in spin doctoring to refute FACTS that don't suit one's agenda?

That's Neb, not Nab.

You know full well that I can pull out the same kind of statistics that refute your agenda. My point is that this is not a black and white, guns/no guns issue. There seems to be more to it than that.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 10:56 am

"You can't argue with the fact that Kennesaw has the lowest crime rate of any city our size in the country,"

"The city's crime rate continues to be far below other metro Atlanta city's with similar populations, like Decatur. In 1998, Decatur recorded 4,049 property crimes per 100,000 residents."


That's irrefutable evidence that gun ownership reduces the crime rate. It leads the country, and it leads neighbouring cities with similar demographics.

If you lived beside me, I'm afraid I'd be putting up this sign. Good luck.


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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:07 am

Rwede wrote:That's irrefutable evidence that gun ownership reduces the crime rate.

I'm sure you think so. On the other hand, if gun ownership reduces the crime rate then why does the US have a murder-by-gun rate about six times that of Canada? How is it that Australia enacted tough gun ownership rules, reducing the number of guns in that country, and the murder-by-gun rate dropped substantially?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby LoneWolf_53 » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:13 am

Captain Awesome wrote:PS: You know, while I despise childish "Let's ban anything that looks scary" posters, you and steelrules with your "Let's arm everybody" backwards *bleep* logic don't do the pro-gun side any favors, that's for sure. Sounds equally if not more childish.


I get the feeling, some are attempting to turn this into a "ban all guns" issue, when in fact most of the opinions posted don't seem to support that.

Many, from what I can see, are on the same page I'm on, which is in favor of banning the ownership of, the type of weapon that belongs only in the military, and that's it.

I haven't suggested "guns" be banned, simply assault style weapons, ones capable of firing large numbers of bullets in rapid succession, regardless of whether they are actual military guns, or some knock off, sold to the public under another name, that simply turns it into a semantics thing, and has no bearing on the overall issue.

Simply put, private people do NOT need to own such weapons, whether they like them or not, just as my possible enthusiasm toward armed jet fighters, doesn't entitle me to keep one in my driveway, in case of invasion by some foreign power.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:14 am

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

April 13, 2009



It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
•Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
•During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
•At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
•Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women



So much for your theories.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby grammafreddy » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:37 am

Makes sense to me. Disarm people and that's where the bad guys will go.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby ukcanuck » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:47 am

Perhaps prohibiting gun manufacture and limiting sales is a better solution.

Make sure that gun makers are accountable to where there products go.

And

Centralize gun sales so that its not as easy as a trip to Walmart.

And

double any sentence for crimes committed with a gun...judge has no choice


This way honest citizens can purchase and keep guns as is their right to do so, and it would be more difficult for bad guys to get new guns at the same time...

There solved...next!
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:50 am

grammafreddy wrote:Makes sense to me. Disarm people and that's where the bad guys will go.

Doesn't the U.S. have more 'bad guys' per capita than Canada? Doesn't the U.S. have a higher level of gun ownership?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:51 am

Rwede wrote:So much for your theories.

So much for your cherrypicking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Rwede » Dec 20th, 2012, 11:58 am

ukcanuck wrote:Perhaps prohibiting gun manufacture and limiting sales is a better solution.




You mean like they do with marijuana? Yeah, that works. :127:
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