28 killed at elementary school

Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby grammafreddy » Dec 21st, 2012, 1:01 pm

Nebula wrote:What about you? I haven't heard you say, "You know, maybe having all those guns is part of the problem."


I don't think they are. Its the people with the guns who are the problem and the people who will use those guns to kill people won't be stopped just because somebody makes a law or restricts them from having them. You can have 25 guns of any description in a classroom full of kids and not one of them will kill a kid until some human picks it up, loads the damn thing and fires it at someone.

Mental illness is a problem and so is the acceptance of violence society has adopted.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 21st, 2012, 1:43 pm

Come now, gramma. Everyone knows:

Video games don't kill people. People kill people.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Nebula » Dec 21st, 2012, 1:45 pm

grammafreddy wrote:You can have 25 guns of any description in a classroom full of kids and not one of them will kill a kid until some human picks it up, loads the damn thing and fires it at someone.

Ergo, we as a society should have no problem with people possessing bazookas, tanks, guided missiles, and the list goes on. After all, they are completely harmless until a human puts them into action.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 21st, 2012, 2:02 pm

grammafreddy wrote:What's the matter - don't want to give up your entertainment?

The lives of children are not as valuable to you as your violent games, etc are? What you want is more important than those kids? "Don't touch or legislate MY fun - regulate guns instead!!!" is the battle cry from your side of the fence?


Richard Nixon blamed people "acting up" about Vietnam on drugs and music. Not that napalming villages was the issue - it was Jimi Hendrix causing all the ruckus.

You are saying you wish to regulate pixelated simulated weapons that people play for entertainment, music (gangster rap lyrics? protest lyrics? war lyrics? The Beatles?) and not regulate actual weapons that people shoot "for entertainment"...

My side of the fence says that actual weapons are more dangerous than a Nintendo.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 21st, 2012, 2:25 pm

Michael Moore ‏@MMFlint

Armed guards in schools? Hmmmm... Oh! That's why the 2 armed guards that were at Columbine HS that day were able to prevent the 15 deaths?


Likely response from NRA - armed guards at Columbine not equipped with powerful enough weapons.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 21st, 2012, 2:45 pm

*try again, this time on topic and without the word censor workaround/Jo*
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 21st, 2012, 2:54 pm

So what about the mass shooting...at Ft.Hood ?

Virginia Tech had their own police department.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:00 pm

SurplusElect wrote:Armed guards in schools? Hmmmm... Oh! That's why the 2 armed guards that were at Columbine HS that day were able to prevent the 15 deaths?


...yet Michael Moore has his own private armed guards.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby SurplusElect » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:08 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:...yet Michael Moore has his own private armed guards.


I guess he should just commit to his cause and get shot by one of the armed-to-the-teeth "sane, law abiding NRA citizens" who send him daily death threats since he made Bowling for Columbine, lol.

Ghandi had body guards.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:09 pm

Nebula wrote:Ergo, we as a society should have no problem with people possessing bazookas, tanks, guided missiles, and the list goes on. After all, they are completely harmless until a human puts them into action.


Neb,

What firearms restrictions would you say prevent this tragedy from happening - or what firearms restrictions would you say are feasible to implement right now?
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Captain Awesome » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:11 pm

SurplusElect wrote:I guess he should just commit to his cause and get shot ...


Well, he can make yet another movie making fun of Americans and how scared they feel so they feel the need to arm themselves. And that there's no need for it at all, and all guns should be banned.

While hiring armed bodyguards for himself. And making millions from such movies.

That's not hypocritical at all!
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby goatboy » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:28 pm

Glacier wrote:If there were armed guards in that school, 26 people would not have died (just as countless deaths were prevented in the Oregon shooting). Doesn't mean it's the best solution, but surely even you can see the logic here.


Well, not sure if its logical because if a mass shooter knows that there will be armed guards in a school, who do you think they'll take out first?

This solution is like closing the barn door after the horse has run away. Putting additional guns in schools may, and I say may, stop one problem but opens up a whole bunch of other problems in the process.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby GenuinelyInterested » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:46 pm

How can any school cop prepare to defend against:
Bomb Tally:
48 -- Carbon Dioxide bombs
27 -- Pipe bombs
11 -- 1.5 gallon propane bombs
7 -- gas or napalm bombs
2 -- 20 pound propane bombs

http://acolumbinesite.com/weapon.html

How could anyone defend against a jetliner deliberately flying into a commercial tower/the pentagon/RSS/KGH/Victoria, BC ? How could anyone defend EVERYTHING, ALL the time, against ALL possible threats?
What about all major sporting events, the Olympics, concerts, peace marches, major metropolitan cities, like Times Square? The Kremlin, The Vatican?
These schools were "soft targets", when they become "hard targets", terrorists/emotionally disturbed people, with access to "the means" will move on to the path of least resistance.
Just because a psychologically disturbed person has been declined the legal right to possess firearms, does not mean that that person cannot still obtain firearms/explosives/chemicals capable of killing other humans.
Even though I live as a, law abiding/peaceful/non-gun owning life, here in Canada, that doesn't mean that I don't have the easy access to harmful chemicals and the knowledge on how to use them to kill.
Someone with the knowledge, could purchase harmful chemicals at a local hardware store and create a device capable of harming dozens within hours if they chose to do so and were pushed to the edge.
This time of year is particularly sensitive. If you have a police scanner, just listen to how many reports have been received for "Sierra Delta" or "Sierra" in the last week, just here in Kelowna alone.
Not wanting to be all doom and gloom, be thankful for what we do have here in Canada and celebrate our differences from our Southern neighbours. May you all enjoy peace and peace in mind that comes with being Canadian and living in the greatest/most peaceful country in the world.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby Glacier » Dec 21st, 2012, 3:51 pm

goatboy wrote:Well, not sure if its logical because if a mass shooter knows that there will be armed guards in a school, who do you think they'll take out first?

This solution is like closing the barn door after the horse has run away. Putting additional guns in schools may, and I say may, stop one problem but opens up a whole bunch of other problems in the process.

They would only take them out if they knew who was carrying. The guy in the Oregon mall didn't know who was carrying, and many lives were saved.

I agree with opening up other problems, namely cost. The truth is, there is no such thing as a way to eliminate mass shootings because they happen in everywhere on earth. All that can be done is to reduce the harm either by restrictions or armaments. Or both.
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Re: 28 killed at elementary school

Postby process99 » Dec 21st, 2012, 4:24 pm

Well if they can't or won't get rid of the guns then just setup the school entry exit program like any other sensitive area.
You are issued a card or digital id badge. they are checked upon entry to the school(scanned recorded) by trained guards WITH NO LETHAL weapons perhaps a tazer or pepper spray.
NO card NO entry. No explanation for entry DENIED , no children attending DENIED etc. Use one main entrance for ALL who wish to enter the school , this includes staff , teachers , custodians, and parents. This will not affect fire escape and safety exits as these can all be EXIT only autolock with alarms the minute one is opened or tampered with.
Add some some basic public cams over the property and common areas inside the school and you know who is in the school( the swipe cards)as well as how many are inside and when they arrived and when they left.
This eliminates the need for armed anyone inside the schools as if a threat is detected then the police are on speed dial for they are able to come and shoot to kill any would be school shooter dead in his/her tracks before they even get in the door.
(one does not need the razor wire as we had ,but we went to an inner city school in a tough and rough area so NO one not attending was aloud on the property without and escort or security badge clearly displayed and checked in at the MAIN door)
Its not very expensive, easy to implement and very easy to control who comes and goes at all times be it grade school or university campus buildings and their respective properties.

Do you really think that this last one would have made it into that school if a swipe card and detector walk through was part of the entry process under the watchfull eye of a trained security officer(S)?
Not likely, he may have gotten his mother however there would be 20 children alive today if something as simple as that was done.
My US school had a ONE entrance policy, the entire school yard was surrounded by razor wire and a 20ft fence and we walked through metal detectors everyday. We even had the option to check our weapons or percieved weapons or turn around and leave escorted OFF the property. This WAS 30 years ago, whats wrong with these people ? they knew then gangs and creeps and gus were a problem then as well , yet they did not improve on the system I was exposed to already in place and working quite well.
It should be so tight to get into a school full of completly defenseless children that it should be similar to a court house or ANY secure area, but alas its not.
Enough with the guns and gun control, the US will never give up their supposed god given constitutional right to carry own and use weapons so they should be controlled to the max at any and all public facility untill some things change for the better, like ZERO guns allowed period.
So untill then make sure the areas are secured properly with NO exceptions, protect the children. Its not hard nor is it expensive It just needs to be done and quickly so there are no more repeats.(and no im not talking about another TSA incarnation with pedo groping security touching your childrens genitals everyday). Just what I said above with newer tech and NO body scanners. just basics metal dectectors, wands and walk through and some staff to take anyone who may be acting strangely to have a closer look.

Most students dont have access to ceramic guns with the same ammo on thier allowance nor do MOST parents have such weapons at home to be stolen pilfered so simple but stringant policy will make a huge difference for 99 percent of populus attending school or university down south.

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