Whose Islam?

[rustled]

Yes, of course they were. As are the more recent murders and atrocities listed on that same website.

But I still wonder, how does posting this sort of list help us, as a society, focus on the real problem we hope to solve? Is it not more likely to create another problem, one that will divert people from focusing on solving the real problem?

I guess where I'm coming from here stems back to wondering how the pogroms happened, and how a society got to where they allowed children like Anne Frank to be imprisoned and killed. It seems to me a society can only do this sort of thing when there's a critical mass of its people who have allowed their unfamiliarity with another group of people to be manipulated to fear, distrust, then vilification to the point where they can no longer respond rationally when ordinary human beings are being persecuted. The persecution doesn't come first, and it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens when the ground has been prepared and the seeds of distrust and fear are well-sown.

When people are presented with lists of atrocities done in the name of Islam, do they think rationally about what that list truly represents?

It seems to me that stirring up the masses in a way that's very likely to pit ordinary people against one another, as we saw with the pogroms, and the holocaust, as we've seen over and over throughout history: it seems to me this is a very dangerous way to try to combat radical extremism.

[Nasturtium]

Clarity and truth are the only weapons we have against "agendas"

[Smurf]

Rustled could you please explain how we should look at these atrocities planned and committed deliberately by organized groups that state almost daily that they want to change the whole world to their beliefs and are willing to kill anyone even people of their own religion that don't agree exactly with their interpretation.

[Donald G]

Unread postby rustled » Today, 10:27 am

It seems to me that stirring up the masses in a way that's very likely to pit ordinary people against one another, as we saw with the pogroms, and the holocaust, as we've seen over and over throughout history: it seems to me this is a very dangerous way to try to combat radical extremism.

WADR rustled, I do not see how anyone could be held responsible for what Germany, Italy and Japan did in starting and prolonging the Second World War. The same can be said for North Korea at the moment. The terrorist acts that consistently occur all over the world are a Muslim Extremist quest for World Domination. IMO the only way to have avoided conflict in the past and avoid conflict with the Muslim Terrorists is to give them what they are demanding; COMPLETE WORLD DOMINATION that requires every world citizen to live by Sharia Law or be killed.

Your comment reminds me of a man by the name of Neville Chamberlain who gave the world "Peace in our Time" by giving in to Hitler. Surely you are not suggesting that giving in to ISIS by granting them Syria would be justified and bring peace ??

Sometimes mankind has to fight to escape being placed and held in bondage.

[Static]

This thread gets more amusing. What you are saying Donald is that it is ok for a government to carry out mass murder but when a small organized group does, it is shameful.

Sometimes mankind has to fight to escape being placed and held in bondage by certain governments.

[rustled]

Rustled could you please explain how we should look at these atrocities planned and committed deliberately by organized groups that state almost daily that they want to change the whole world to their beliefs and are willing to kill anyone even people of their own religion that don't agree exactly with their interpretation.

Okay, Smurf, but itsa gonna be a long one.

I don't claim to have the answers, just my own perspective.

I see these acts as atrocities committed by radical extremists. Yes, they do use their religion as an excuse. (And yes, I do find it disturbing that there isn't more pushback from mainstream Muslims, but think about how difficult it has always been for people to push back against this sort of thing. Ordinary Germans who didn't support what the Nazis did, for example.)

But to my mind, just because these terrorists use it as their excuse doesn't mean that's truly what their religion is all about. I don't see these as "Muslim atrocities" or "Islamic atrocities" any more than I would see Jonestown or Waco or the disturbing incidents of homophobic violence in America or Africa as "Christian atrocities". So it's disturbing, to me, that this is what we're being told to believe, by people who make dubious claims to authority and, worse, have such a vested financial interest in telling us what to believe. This, to me, is akin to accepting a Pope's version of what it is to be Christian, or an atheist blogger's version of what it is to be Christian. Regardless of how well-educated that blogger may be, I am familiar enough with Christianity to understand that the version one person shares isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, the version all Christians would accept, or that a majority would even attempt to adhere to.

I think that's true for most of us. When a Christian uses their religion as an excuse for murdering the medical professionals at an abortion clinic, the vast majority of us know better than to believe they did it because "that's what Christians do". When a Christian man murders his wife or a Christian parent murders a child because they didn't obey, and uses their faith as an excuse, we don't accept that either.

But every day we see examples here on this forum, and elsewhere, of people blindly accepting that the reason a Muslim person commits a similar atrocity is "because their religion told them to". To my mind, that kind of cultural conditioning can't end well.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that ordinary people who feel increasingly distrusted, threatened or vulnerable because of their religion are more likely (not less likely) to band together against those they see as banding together against them, in effect bolstering the very conditions (seeing people as opposing groups) we should instead work to diminish. This, to my mind, makes that kind of messaging even more dangerous for all of us.

To my mind, we become useful idiots when we pretend there is not a problem with people using Islam to excuse their radical extremist atrocities, but we also become useful idiots when we play a part in dividing ordinary people against each other by promoting distrust and fear of ordinary people based solely on their religion. The extremists benefit when this becomes a religious war.

Yes, we need to be vigilant against allowing sharia law to seep into our judicial systems. Yes, we need to be vigilant about bringing large volumes of improperly screened refugees in, and about not providing them with the tools they need to contribute positively to their new "home". But we also need to be vigilant about turning ordinary people into enemies.

Thank you for asking, and for your patience with my reply. I hope it makes some sense.

[The Green Barbarian]

This thread gets more amusing. What you are saying Donald is that it is ok for a government to carry out mass murder but when a small organized group does, it is shameful.
.

Fundamental Islam is a "small organized group"? Really? And you know, continuing to just pull the invasion of Iraq out whenever you are cornered doesn't really save you when you are sinking. It's just deflection.

[rustled]

Unread postby rustled » Today, 10:27 am
It seems to me that stirring up the masses in a way that's very likely to pit ordinary people against one another, as we saw with the pogroms, and the holocaust, as we've seen over and over throughout history: it seems to me this is a very dangerous way to try to combat radical extremism.

WADR rustled, I do not see how anyone could be held responsible for what Germany, Italy and Japan did in starting and prolonging the Second World War. ... Surely you are not suggesting that giving in to ISIS by granting them Syria would be justified and bring peace ??
...

No, Donald G. Quite the opposite. Never have I said anywhere we should capitulate to the terrorists.

I should have explained myself better, and I've tried to, above.

Just to clarify: the atrocities that occurred in conjunction with that war, those most of us would likely agree were the most heinous, those specifically targeting the Jewish people, occurred in conditions where there was already a widespread and generally accepted distrust of the Jewish people. There was a strong enough sense of "us" and "them" for it to happen as it did. My perception is that we are replicating those same conditions today, dividing ordinary people against each other based solely on religion.

Dividing us this way does not address the real problem. It only creates another one.

[Glacier]

[Static]

Can people please summarize the videos they post.

[the truth]

says it all does it not,

[sobrohusfat]

Taqiyya - the art of strategic deception until the "peaceful" faithful is in a position of sufficient strength to subjugate the infidel.



Muruna - the Sunni flavour of Taqiyya

[Glacier]

That lady is pretty good. Here is another one of her videos.

[Glacier]

Here's another. Dr. Wafa Sultan. A women who escaped out of Syria years ago. She knows what she's talking about.

[Ka-El]

Yes, we need to be vigilant against allowing sharia law to seep into our judicial systems. Yes, we need to be vigilant about bringing large volumes of improperly screened refugees in, and about not providing them with the tools they need to contribute positively to their new "home". But we also need to be vigilant about turning ordinary people into enemies.

Well said. I believe Islamic extremism is a growing and very real threat, and we have to fight against that threat in the strongest possible manner. However, turning ordinary people into our enemies (such as Trump would do, for example) is not only going to be counterproductive, it is incredibly reckless and dangerous. And while we do have to respond to terrorist threats in the strongest possible way, we cannot just continue to ignore the conditions created by our current global socioeconomic system that will continue to produce disenfranchised and marginalized people who will become perfect recruits for the extremists. We will never be able to overcome ideological extremism by force alone, no matter how great the force.