Saudi arms deal makes mockery of Canadian values

[Atomoa]

http://www.embassynews.ca/opinion/2015/ ... lues/46601

The Harper government has made defending Western values a centrepiece of its anti-terror rhetoric. But our actions both at home and abroad tell a different story.

Since the 9/11 attacks, Western democracies, in the name of fighting terrorism, have enacted countless anti-democratic measures to curtail free speech, free assembly, peaceful political dissent and most especially due process and the rule of law. At the same time, we have partnered with anti-democratic regimes abroad to counter the illegal use of force by violent extremists with our own military “reign of terror.”

Nothing can illustrate this Orwellian approach more clearly than Canada’s unholy alliance with Saudi Arabia. It is one of three countries, along with the United States and Israel, that not only violent jihadists but the vast majority of moderate Islam (with much justification) hold largely responsible for preventing Muslim countries in the Middle East from taking their rightful place in the world community.

Saudi Arabia is a key regional ally in the American-led military coalition, of which Canada is a part, against the Islamic State, the Islamist movement that has taken over significant areas in northern Iraq. Yet, the 83 official beheadings carried out by Saudi Arabia in 2014 surely rival the numbers thus far attributed to either Al Qaeda or the Islamic State. And need we be reminded that almost all of the 9/11 airplane hijackers were of Saudi origin, including the mastermind, Osama bin Laden.

What message does such blatant hypocrisy send to embattled reformers and peaceful activists in the Middle East?

And of course let us not forget the Saudi role, using Canadian armoured vehicles, in putting down peaceful demonstrations during Bahrain’s short-lived Arab Spring, actions in gross violation of democratic principles. Saudi Arabia’s egregious human rights record ultimately caused Germany in April 2014 to rescind its own huge tank deal with Saudi Arabia.

A few facts about the Canadian deal: supported by heavy government promotion and a parallel decline in Canada’s export control standards, multi-year contracts for armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia were announced by General Dynamic Land Systems Canada in February, totalling almost $15 billion.

Variants include armoured troop carriers and tanks with large cannons, operable in both urban and rural environments. In short, these vehicles are particularly suited for the type of repression of peaceful dissent we saw in Bahrain. As Canadian expert Ken Epps has pointed out in recent commentaries, it is possible that, “in the near term at least, Saudi Arabia will rival or even replace the US as Canada’s largest arms customer and the Middle East—the world’s most heavily-armed and arguably most unstable region—will become the most economically important to the Canadian arms industry.” This will give Canada a direct financial stake in Middle East conflict rather than in its resolution.

Remember this everytime Stephen Harper talks about "standing up for the free rights of the world/press/democracy" in his big ramp up to a Canadian ground war/occupation in Iraq.

We sell equipment to a government that beats, tortures and kills their own people. Beheads them. We helped put down the Saudi Arab Spring.

Do we really think that we can counter violent extremism by partnering with repressive Middle Eastern governments who make a mockery of Western democratic values? By outlawing peaceful political opposition parties while doing nothing to address marginalized, impoverished minorities, these governments are fuelling that very terrorism we say we are fighting.

The Canadian arms deal to Saudi Arabia is a national disgrace. Our export control laws, going back over 30 years, have a human rights test that potential recipients are required to pass. If Saudi Arabia can meet that test, then any country can. If the Canadian government is actually serious about fighting terrorism, the very first thing it must do is follow Germany’s principled lead and cancel this arms deal.

[brounal]

I actually agree with you on this issue. We should not be doing business with this regime /country . It is equivalent to me to doing business with North Korea. Course if we don't then Russia or China will. They have no morals at all and are only concerned with world domination. And their idea of world domination is to actually take territory.And of course all three superpowers will try to influence other countries from within by assassination,, coups, putting in puppet governments. Its all a global game of RISK.
Russia and China were allies in the second world War against Germany and Japan. Then Russia and US were cold war enemies . Russia and China were enemies in the past as well. Now Russia and China are buddies against the US.

And we all know how games of Risk end. but nowadays I prefer to call it Nuclear Risk.

[Atomoa]

I actually agree with you on this issue. We should not be doing business with this regime /country . It is equivalent to me to doing business with North Korea. Course if we don't then Russia or China will. They have no morals at all and are only concerned with world domination

We are doing mega-business with China and we do not share a bit of their values. Part of this governments big ticket pitch was pushing a pipeline straight to the Chinese.

No free press. No free speech. Government work camps. Torture. Our best business buddy!

It's a pure lie and wash that Canada "stands up for freedom and democracy". We stand for what suits us. At one time we did stand for what's right, or at least tried to. There is no right or wrong in a board room and that is where our government is placed. Corporate/Big Biz owned, not people owned.

Iran is a lamb compared to Saudi Arabia, but we allied with them because they don't like Iran and Stephen Harper needs to play up being best buddies with Israel for those votes - so therefore its ok to sip tea with habitual beheaders and sex slave owners. Sell them military gear, use the RCMP to help train their police so they can beat down peopel easier and sell them vehicles that women can't drive.

Canada trained 4000 Saudi doctors, so when they cut the hand and leg off a person who spoke out against the government, at least a doctor is present so they don't bleed out and die. Doctors are great to have around when giving 1000 lashes to your citizens on a regular basis.

There is currently 15,000 Saudi Nationals attending classes in Canada. (I can't find hard numbers right now) how much property/capital they have here. Lots of property in Toronto and Vancouver at least for starters.

It's open for business here. Just remember that in this ramp up to war in the name of values.

[Glacier]

We are doing mega-business with China and we do not share a bit of their values. Part of this governments big ticket pitch was pushing a pipeline straight to the Chinese.

No free press. No free speech. Government work camps. Torture. Our best business buddy!

Wait a second. Aren't you the guy that was saying we don't have Western values like free speech and freedom of the press relative to the middle east? :P

Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with you on this one for the reasons highlighted in the OP on one hand, but on the other, Saudi Arabia is not at war with Canada, so why treat them differently than say, Cuba or any other repressive government?

[Atomoa]

http://www.international.gc.ca/controls ... x?lang=eng

Objectives of Export Controls

The principal objective of export controls is to ensure that exports of certain goods and technology are consistent with Canada's foreign and defence policies. Among other goals, export controls seek to ensure that exports from Canada:

do not cause harm to Canada and its allies;
do not undermine national or international security;
do not contribute to national or regional conflicts or instability;
do not contribute to the development of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons of mass destruction, or of their delivery systems;
are not used to commit human rights violations; and
are consistent with existing economic sanctions' provisions.
Canada's export controls are not intended to hamper legitimate trade but seek to balance the economic and commercial interests of Canadian business with the national interest of Canada.

In addition to compliance with the relevant law, the Export and Import Permits Act, exporters of goods and technology that are subject to export controls have a responsibility to conduct due diligence verifications of actual and potential foreign customers and to provide any relevant information in an export permit application. The Government of Canada's reviews of applications to export goods and technology seek to ensure that exports from Canada will not be diverted to illegitimate end-uses or end-users that could harm Canada's foreign and defence interests or that could lead to considerable embarrassment or liability for the exporter. In other words, this review can be seen as another step in the exporter's due diligence process.

[Atomoa]

Saudi Arabia is not at war with Canada, so why treat them differently than say, Cuba or any other repressive government?

ISIS was not "at war" with Canada until we attacked them first. The states withdrew from their illegal occupation, ISIS took over, nobody cared until they moved in on the oil infrastructure, the US attacked and asked for help, ISIS released a video warning they will attack anyone that attacks them, we sent in "non combat but combative" advisors and attacked them. Then the shooting in Ottawa happened which could or could not be a actual terrorist attack. The timeline is readily available through all media sources.

I know you want to tow the path-to-war line but I dont want to stray off topic. Let's discuss the nature of the war with ISIS in the terror thread.

This is about the double standard of standing up for Canadian "values" when our business interests certainly dont reflect it. The Saudi regime and the current government doing the biggest military deal with them in history is certainly something to look at as we are committing tax dollars and risking lives to "bomb beheaders". You can have a look at my Chinese Hackers thread for other lovely people who want to hurt us but we take their money anyways.

We're not bombing other repressive regimes - we're doing business with them. If there was something to be had in North Korea do you believe we wouldn't be looking the other way?

We supported Saddam Hussein to fight Iran. We want Iran for their wealth. We have since the 1940's. Israel's fear is politically popular and convenient in this regard. Now we're supporting Saudi Arabia for the same purposes. Setting up a business friendly government in Iran.

We also threw billions of dollars worth of military gear at the Saudi's. The west gave huge chunks of money to any nation standing up to communism. Truman doctrine. The Saudi's viewed the Russians as "godless" so we aligned with the crazies to help us protect capitalism and fight communism. The 1st Gulf War was about protecting Saudi Arabia's oil reserves from falling into Saddam-the-ex-business-partners hands.

[FreeRights]

ISIS was not "at war" with Canada until we attacked them first. The states withdrew from their illegal occupation, ISIS took over, nobody cared until they moved in on the oil infrastructure, the US attacked and asked for help, ISIS released a video warning they will attack anyone that attacks them, we sent in "non combat but combative" advisors and attacked them. Then the shooting in Ottawa happened which could or could not be a actual terrorist attack. The timeline is readily available through all media sources.

I know you want to tow the path-to-war line but I dont want to stray off topic. Let's discuss the nature of the war with ISIS in the terror thread.

This is about the double standard of standing up for Canadian "values" when our business interests certainly dont reflect it. The Saudi regime and the current government doing the biggest military deal with them in history is certainly something to look at as we are committing tax dollars and risking lives to "bomb beheaders". You can have a look at my Chinese Hackers thread for other lovely people who want to hurt us but we take their money anyways.

We're not bombing other repressive regimes - we're doing business with them. If there was something to be had in North Korea do you believe we wouldn't be looking the other way?

We supported Saddam Hussein to fight Iran. We want Iran for their wealth. We have since the 1940's. Israel's fear is politically popular and convenient in this regard. Now we're supporting Saudi Arabia for the same purposes. Setting up a business friendly government in Iran.

We also threw billions of dollars worth of military gear at the Saudi's. The west gave huge chunks of money to any nation standing up to communism. Truman doctrine. The Saudi's viewed the Russians as "godless" so we aligned with the crazies to help us protect capitalism and fight communism. The 1st Gulf War was about protecting Saudi Arabia's oil reserves from falling into Saddam-the-ex-business-partners hands.

You have an incredibly skewed and misinformed concept of history.

Though I could waste my time responding to your * post, I will instead restrict my response to what is bolded.

When you say non combat but combative, you're also saying unprotective police, and you're alleging, in general, unprotective military.

If you had a day of military training in your life, which it is extremely clear that you have not, you would understand that the doctrine of military training is repetition and experience. Given a short period of time to train an entire military force, it's obvious and smart that we did such training as close to actual combat as possible. If you would like less-trained soldiers, that's your business but it's based on a complete misunderstanding of military training.

The government and the military have said it once and again, but you are beyond reasoning and so far into misinformation that it doesn't ring. Defending oneself is not a combat mission. If a police officer has to fire on another individual tomorrow to defend himself, that is not a combat mission. Canadian Forces would not have had to exchange fire in that situation if the enemy had not have attacked. You are extraordinary and embarrassingly misinformed in this situation. Had you taken the time and the interest 1, 2, 5, or 10 years ago to understand military operations and definition, then even now you would know the difference between a combat mission and a not one. You did not take that time, you did not take that interest, and now you accuse the military of re-defining things. That is possibly the least accurate, least informed argument you could have made.

[Atomoa]

Ok, so the mods do not think that you posting a rant about what is and isnt combat in the Saudi Arabia thread I'll remind you that I posted this :

I know you want to tow the path-to-war line but I dont want to stray off topic. Let's discuss the nature of the war with ISIS in the terror thread.

This is about the double standard of standing up for Canadian "values" when our business interests certainly dont reflect it. The Saudi regime and the current government doing the biggest military deal with them in history is certainly something to look at as we are committing tax dollars and risking lives to "bomb beheaders". You can have a look at my Chinese Hackers thread for other lovely people who want to hurt us but we take their money anyways

If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia or other countries that Canada does business with, we can continue the conversation.

If you want to talk about the nature of the war with ISIS and Canada's role - there is another thread for it. Thanks.

[maryjane48]

i would be interested to know if saudi is helping any group cause trouble for israel, think of it, we help saudi, they support people who attack israel, and we say, we have protect israel lol

[Captain Awesome]

Come on, Canada has to follow the Nobel Prize winner for peace Mr. Obama into all the wars he wants to start.

[Thinktank]

saudi = billionaires
israel = billionaires
harper = help billionaires
saudi and israel = partners
harper = kiss the feet of saudi and kiss the ground israel walk on

[Thinktank]

We should not be doing business with this regime /country .

Are you serious?

Who cares what you want? Billionaires will decide what to do - and you'll do what they say to do.

[logicalview]

Are you serious?

Who cares what you want? Billionaires will decide what to do - and you'll do what they say to do.

which is why you'll be buying a Tesla soon right?

[Atomoa]

Saudi Arabia beheaded 88 people so far this year. They are going to beat their record from last year. They have been lopping off heads so often that they had to take out employment ad's looking for candidates.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... dings-soar
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... 88th-death

What a great society. Good thing we spent 175,000 dollars to send a Canadian Governor General to shake hands with the leader of the worlds worst country.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/david-j ... -1.3087084

Well, if that wasnt enough, Canada sold the Saudi's 15 billion worth of military equipment. However by law we are suppose to make sure that the military eqipment wont be used to violate humans rights...in Saudi Arabia...where human rights do not exist.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... e24634202/

The Canadian government is refusing to make public the assessments it conducts to determine whether Ottawa’s $15-billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia is compatible with foreign policy or poses a risk to the civilian population in a country notorious for human-rights abuses.

The Department of Foreign Affairs argues it must keep deliberations secret regarding this deal – by far the largest export contract ever brokered by Ottawa – citing the need to protect the “commercial confidentiality” of General Dynamics Land Systems Canada, which makes the light armoured vehicles.

Ottawa maintains this despite the fact that Foreign Affairs, by its own stated rules, is required to screen requests to export military goods to countries “whose governments have a persistent record of serious violations of the human rights of their citizens.” Among other things, it must obtain assurances “there is no reasonable risk that the goods might be used against the civilian population.”

The $15-billion sale of fighting vehicles to Saudi Arabia, first announced in 2014, represents a big win for the Harper government’s efforts to build up Canada’s role as a global arms dealer by championing weapons exports. But Ottawa is not going to share its analysis of how this transaction will pass muster with the federal export controls regime

While we are "fighting terrorists", we are also shaking their hands and selling them billion of dollars worth of military equipment while they drive people off to be tortured, raped and beheaded.

The biggest arms deal in Canadian history. Sold to the worst country in the world with no accountability.

[maryjane48]

it is flat out disgusting how some posters on here pick and chose the bad guy of the day on here , and this here story on canada selling saudi arms , proves harper has to go like yesterday . it almost like harper is trying to will terrorism to come to canada so he can be right for once